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What is obedience to Chirst? Is it not to love as Christ loved us? Are we not to be conformed to the image of Christ? We can do all things in Christ, that is by His work in us. Without Christ we are nothing, must clanging cymbals and noisy gongs do works to be conformed to the Image of Christ. It matters not anything I do right or wrong, for works cannot make me any better than Christ in me has already made me. The main obedience we have is 1 Cor: 13 which is the better way. To Love all of the God head, and each other as Christ loved the Father and us learning obedience by the things He suffered, even the Cross, This is our obedience, not works of the Law, which are still nailed to the Cross. Works of Love, which Paul says it, the way of; "Christ in you the Hope of glory". He is our obedience, love, our all in all.
In Christ: Phillip, learning love, with all my short comings
Inabilities depending on Christ as Paul, who will set me free from this body of sin.
What wonderful, Holy Spirit filled music; "Keep your eyes opon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face, and the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the LIGHT of HIS GLORY and GRACE."
Praise God in Christ Jesus our Lord: Phillip
| 2010/3/12 12:23||Profile|
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Quote:It does matter if you do wrong or right. Ff you do wrong, you are not glorigying Christ. If you are doing right, then you are glorifying Christ.
It matters not anything I do right or wrong, for works cannot make me any better than Christ in me has already made me.
Christ did not "make" you good by reckoning you righteous. He only deems you as righteous because of your faith. However, if you do wrong, it is only proving your faithlessness, thus making your unrighteous.
Doing right proves your faith. Just as faith without works is dead, so doing right (works) quickens yor faith.
Quote:Love fullfills the law.
This is our obedience, not works of the Law, which are still nailed to the Cross. Works of Love, which Paul says it, the way of; "Christ in you the Hope of glory". He is our obedience, love, our all in all.
Our obedience is works of the (spirit of the) law, which is from love. This is the way of; "Christ in you the Hope of glory". He is our obedience, love, our all in all.
Quote:We do not have a body of sin unless we are using it for sin. However, "this body of death", we are delivered already.
Inabilities depending on Christ as Paul, who will set me free from this body of sin.
| 2010/3/12 12:53||Profile|
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I can not control that which irritates me
Ah my friend, now we are getting down to the nitty gritty as we say in the UK.
You cannot control the things that people do but you do not have to react to it or have an emotional reaction to it. And yes irritation is a sin - it is a hidden attitude in the heart that is exalting itself above the other. Endless patience is of the Spirit. What you are saying is that you have not yet been convicted of this sin.
What you are really saying is that in theory, we have the ability of not sinning, but during your walk as a believer, you did not manage it yourself but you admit that it was not unintentional. Well my friend I got irritable with people and when God convicted me that it was sin I found that I could not stop it. Before that I sailed on in blissfull ignorance that it was not a sin. I also sailed on in blissful ignorance that evil thoughts that were in my heart were not sin, but here is nothing but purity in a pure heart. We have put on the mind of Christ in this state and it is fully under our control.
The devil will not even try to tempt us with those thoughts when we have done with sin and the old man is dead. What he does tempt us with is to get us to act from the natural impulses which are not sins. Like to want to eat if the Lord says fast.
Your standard of the holy life is way below what mine is. You are not describing a pure heart as I understand it. No you cannot sin accidently when you are walking like this. You cannot sin and stay in that state - you fall. You cannot have an evil thought in your mind it is totally purity. Sin is sin and shows that we are walking in the flesh. It is one or the other the flesh or the spirit.
| 2010/3/12 13:06|
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Quote:No, it isn't. Things which you can't control are not sin.
And yes, irritation is a sin
How you [b]react[/b] to the irritation may be a sin.
Does an itch irritate you?
Quote:No, I'm not saying that. There is nothing to be convicted about if one can not control it. if one can not control it, then he is not at fault. If one is not at fault, then he as not sinned.
What you are saying is that you have not yet been convicted of this sin.
Quote:could you refrase this?
What you are really saying is that in theory, we have the ability of not sinning, but during your walk as a believer, you did not manage it yourself but you admit that it was not unintentional.
However, it is not a "theory", because it has been proven.
Furthermore, if one can't stop sinning, the he is noy culpable of sin.
Quote:How do you repent if you can't stop it?
Well my friend, I got irritable with people and when God convicted me that it was sin I found that I could not stop it.
How are you convicted if your not culpable?
Quote:How could you "sail on in blissful ignorance that evil thoughts that were in your heart" and not know they were sin? Didn't you know that evil thoughts are sinful?
Before that I sailed on in blissful ignorance that it was not a sin. I also sailed on in blissful ignorance that evil thoughts that were in my heart were not sin, but here is nothing but purity in a pure heart.
People always know what's in their heart, because they put it there. However, it was your fault for letting them in there.
Don't say that you didn't put them in there by choice.
| 2010/3/12 14:46||Profile|
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As I have been reading these posts, some observations and thoughts come to mind.
The focus of the discussion seems to be sin, and our ability to refrain from it. It is almost as if the assumption is made that sin is the issue, and that each new infraction must be "cleared from the books" so to speak or the person who committed the infraction will receive judgment for it either now, or more probably in eternity. It seems then that working off of this assumption we then must decide if it is only intentional sins, or if accidental sins as well are held to our account by God. If it is only sins of intentional commission, then we are left with the question of whether one can "choose" not to sin. If it is also accidental sin, then it seems we realize the whole argument falls apart (How could God expect us to refrain from that which happens without our decision?)and so we must not consider that possibility.
What if the answer is not A, is not B, but is C... None of the above?
Let me give you a story from personal experience to illustrate. As a young boy, I had a very hyper and annoying personality. Others saw me coming and did their best to avoid me. I delighted in pestering people, not out of meanness, but out of a lack of understanding that people did not like to always be pestered. I did not know how to relate to others well, and as a result suffered a great deal of rejection by them. As time went along and I carried these emotional scars with me. I was born again at 8, baptized in the Holy Spirit at 18, loved God with all my heart, and had an active and vibrant relationship with Him. I saw miraculous things occur in my life and in ministry. And yet, I still carried scars deep inside.
At the age of 33 or 34, God began to deal with this area of rejection in my life. Through His word, and through prayer and ministry of other believers, I was set free from a great deal of the pain and hurt of my childhood. This was no small thing. This fear of rejection had immobilized me spiritually and in ministry in a number of significant ways.
About a year ago, as I was preparing to help minister in a conference, these issues once again came to the front. I pulled some mature leaders aside just before the meeting and told them that I was really battling some things, and could they pray with me for a bit. We went aside into another room and before long I was weeping before them as the pain of this fear and these memories continued to come out of my life.
I told them the things I had been thinking about myself. I had been telling myself I was not able to do what I knew God had called me to do. I had been proclaiming to myself that I was a loser, that I did not see how God could use me, etc. Everything I said was in direct contradiction to what the Word of God said about me. I was in a great deal of self-focus (even self debasement can be pride as your focus is on you and not on God).
A mature leader looked at me and said, "I am not at all trying to belittle what you have been saying, but I must say something to you. You must accept that your attitude about yourself is self-focused and the things you have been proclaiming about yourself are in direct contradiction to what the Word of God says about you. This is SIN." This is true, isn't it? Pride is sin. Self-focus is sin.
So I present a question. It was not by accident that I had these attitudes. I was aware that they were not Godly attitudes. Do I now also possess attitudes that God will yet reveal to me as sin in His eyes? Has God ever dealt with you over issues that you were satisfied to live with, and in doing so shown you that they were sin? What of your eternal state then? I tell you, no one can live a life in this unregenerate body with it's imperfectly renewed mind and simply choose never to sin again. One may look at an obvious outward action such as lying and say, "If I choose not to lie today, I can choose not to lie tomorrow", and that person may have total success until they die at not lying. But what of the impure thought that is dwelt upon when you are alone? What of the time that you knew to do good, and you failed to do it?
I believe the issue is not culpability. To even debate whether we are to be held responsible for our sins is superfluous. Of course we are held accountable. The question was asked, "what is the power of sin." I believe we find the answer in 1 Cor. 15:56 and Romans chapters 1-8. The strength of sin is the law. The law concluded all of us under sin. The law is what caused us to be held accountable for our sin. One mentioned the ten commandments. As a born again believer with a better covenant (See the letter to the Hebrews), we are no longer under the curse of the law, including the ten commandments. We are not required to keep them to be right with God or pleasing to God. We never were. Sure, they restrained sin, but through fear of punishment. They were a ministration of death to us (See the letter to the Corinthians), condemning us and concluding us all under sin.
But Christ set us free from the curse of the law. What was this curse? Cursed is everyone who does not continue in ALL things that are written in the law (Gal. 3:10). It was the curse of penalty. It was the curse of enduring the wrath of God for our sins. We are set free from that curse by the blood of Jesus. He became a curse for us. He became sin for us so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I was accountable for my sin, and Jesus provided the way by which that accountability could be removed.
You see, sin is simply not the issue anymore. Look carefully at the book of Hebrews. You will find that if one EVER turns back on salvation, he or she can NEVER be born again, again. If I commit a sin, I don't lose my salvation. My spirit does not immediately become dead once again to God and in need of regeneration again. Hebrews says I am perfected forever. Where? In my body? Hardly. In my soul realm (my mind and emotions)? No. But in my spirit I am perfected. Recall that the word talks about the spirits of just men made perfect. Hebrews 12:23.
This really bothers some people. They have a really hard time accepting this because it means all their good works and all of their avoidance of sin suddenly earns them nothing. They cannot see how it can be so. Surely I must pay for my transgressions. NO, that is the point of the cross.
So is sin OK? NO. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. We are dead to sin. Sin is deadly. To willfully sin one must harden his heart against the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Continual hardening of heart will cause you to walk away from the faith that you once had. It will destroy you. But not because it is a "new" infraction that has not been paid for yet. Rather because to do so causes me to take one step closer to turning away from my salvation. To cease to trust God for forgiveness and salvation.
Remember the God told David that he would remember our sins no more, that He would one day write His laws on our heart. If I obey the Spirit, the letter no longer applies to me. I will live more holy on accident walking in God's grace than I ever did on purpose by trying to keep the rules well. My Christian walk becomes an outflow rather than a regimen.
The focus of the Christian life is not, and should not be, "How can I avoid sin?" My life does not revolve around sin, or the avoidance thereof. In fact, I rarely ever give sin a second thought. I simply seek to draw nearer and nearer to God. I commit myself to obeying His word and His voice daily. I seek to learn how to live out of my spirit man, to walk in the spirit, and know that in doing so I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, because the two are mutually exclusive. When I fall short in this area, I am quick to repent (to turn from sin and walk in the spirit), and accept the fact that God has forgiven me for Christ's sake.
Sorry this was a bit long, but I felt I wanted to put some thoughts into the discussion.
| 2010/3/12 17:45||Profile|
| 2010/3/12 18:35||Profile|
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Thank you brother Travis for your post. very edifying to say the least.
| 2010/3/12 18:54||Profile|
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To my friend Logic,
You seem to have a good amount is invested Scripture study under your belt. That is a valuable thing these last days. You have a lot of thought that certainly can be used for the Kingdom and I don't want to question your authority in the Scriptures. Might I offer something? Most posts on here that you gain involvement in seem to gravitate towards a contentious tendency. I don't really see the others conducting themselves in this manner. But I bring this up as a kind warning. The strife is not pleasing to God and we do end up with consequences to this kind of moral sin. Even if it's on a message board. I don't know if a church has been mean and nasty towards you or if there is another circumstance we here do not know about. But God has me praying for you lately. Whatever it is you're dealing with, don't worry, God can make it all better. If it helps, pray and listen to God's still small voice in this matter. And do hear the Lord (as He commands us to obey Him) and listen to see if God would have you post replies to people. Let me say it again, I love the zeal you have to see people corrected and challenged in their motives. Now it's time for another person to have a turn in providing healthy challenging you to for the purpose of Growth in the SermonIndex Body. Shawn.
| 2010/3/12 20:51||Profile|
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Well said knitefall and indeed it is true, that men show their true natures when dealing with contenders.
Things which you can't control are not sin.
How you react to the irritation may be a sin. Does an itch irritate you?
Well now that is quite silly to suggest that an itch on the skin is the same as a mental annoyance, which is anger. Jesus seemed to think that we could control anger when He said we are to be as harmless as doves Matt 10:16 and He demolished the thought that only the outward actions count in the sermon on the mount when He said that anger is the same as murder.
My words - What you are really saying is that in theory, we have the ability of not sinning, but during your walk as a believer, you did not manage it yourself but you admit that it was not unintentional.
I meant that you say we can not sin but you yourself are not going to give a clear testimony of it. Tell me, what does an unbeliever think of someone who claims they do not sin but sees such things as irritation in those who claim it and which they recognise as sin or ungraciousness towards those who oppose their doctrines?
As for your further questions, there were certain things that I thought I could not help before the Lord showed me otherwise. Even though we cannot stop certain sins like irritation with others, they are still sins and are against the precepts of the walk in the kingdom and deliverence is needed from them. The power of the Lord is able to do this even though we cannot. It however is a trap to call them anything other than sin.
| 2010/3/13 3:22|
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Even though your focus is not on sin, the focus of the scriptures is on sin firstly by convicting of it and then by showing how holiness is achieved.
But I agree with you that in the kingdom, the focus is not to be on avoiding sin. If we truly have the new nature, we have been washed clean by the Blood of Jesus and we can walk according to the new nature which is freed from the curse of the law of sin and death (spiritual) In that state which is called eternal, the love of God which is shed abroad in our hearts, brings with it healing of the soul and all of the wounds and scars of the past are gone. We see ourselves as God sees us not as our parents, bless their souls saw us and damaged us. Because we are healed from these effects of being under the law of sin and death, we do not need to think of avoiding sin every day - it is as natural as breathing.
We do not fall in and out of that state for it says in Jude 24 that He keeps us from falling - falling into sin that is. And any temptation will not cause us to fall from this state if we stay entirely submitted and have presented our bodies as a living sacrifice. That is our part and it at once the hardest and the easiest thing in life.
Those who continue in sin or sin and deny that it is sin we are not dead to sin are not on the altar no matter what they believe or how right their doctrine is - it cannot be more exact than satans.
Many seem to have been hurt by the teaching that if we sin we can fall into hell and go the other way and think that we are covered so long as we behave morally and no different to the moral pagan ignoring the words of Jesus on heart sins. I call that unbalanced and dangerous because if we are still avoiding sins we are living in our own strength and are not even in the kingdom where we are sanctified by faith.
Most are not in the kingdom and therefore saved because Jesus came to save His people FROM sin not cover them up like snow covers the compost heap, He came to really deliver them from sin FULL STOP but the human mind is so inclined to evil that it will work a way around the exacting qualifications needed like total sacrifice and death with Christ on the cross and excuse their 'infracions' like the one you have quoted - our spirit is holy but not the body. See 1John for the answer to that.
The gospel is simple really - men make it complicated - if we are washed in the blood we do not sin THE END no accidents, no renaming sin - NO SIN!
| 2010/3/13 4:50|