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 Re:

Quote:
Jeremiah 17:9

9The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?



Following the context of the passage it seems to just be about the wickedness of the people of Judah.

"The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars" - Jeremiah 17:1

 2010/2/22 20:59
yoadam
Member



Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

[b]Yes![/b] Born in sin with sin nature, total depravity, orginal sin, ... Check out what the puritans had to say about it along with the accompanying scripture references in the:

[b]Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter VI[/b]
[b]Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof[/b]

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]

II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]

VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]

[b]SCRIPTURE PROOFS:[/b]
[1] GEN 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 2CO 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[2] ROM 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[3] GEN 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. ROM 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

[4] GEN 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.

[5] TIT 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. GEN 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. JER 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

[6] GEN 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 2:16 AND THE LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ACT 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation. ROM 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 1CO 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

[7] PSA 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. GEN 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth. JOB 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

[8] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. ROM 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. ROM 7:18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. COL 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

[9] GEN 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 8:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[10] JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. MAT 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

[11] 1JO 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. ROM 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. JAM 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

[12]ROM 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

[13] 1JO 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

[14] ROM 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. ROM 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

[15] EPH 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

[16] GAL 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[17] ROM 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[18] EPH 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart.

[19] ROM 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. LAM 3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

[20] MAT 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. 2TH 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

[url=http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/]http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/[/url]


_________________
Adam

 2010/2/23 6:14Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Not dispositive, but there is a reason Jesus was born of a virgin. Adam's seed wasn't involved. HE had no sin nature.

 2010/2/23 7:53Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
yoadam wrote:
I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] [b]This their sin, God was pleased[/b], according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]

This is where it all gets perverted.
God is never pleased with sin!

Enough said.

 2010/2/23 10:23Profile
MityDisciple
Member



Joined: 2009/7/4
Posts: 34
Moncton, New-Brunswick Canada

 Re:

thanks for all the feedback. the original sin camp is definitly making much more sense to me


_________________
Marc Collette

 2010/2/23 11:50Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
murrcolr said:
The essence of sin is ‘selfishness’ inclined towards want we want or living independently of God (Isa 53:6 2 Cor 5:15).

Yes, but it isn't proof of any kind of sin nature.

Please stop using the fact that we sin as proof of a so called "sin nature".
You can't to this because Adam & Eve sin, but you claim that they didn't have a sin nature.
Lucifer sinned, and He didn't have a sin nature.
Therefore, you can not use the fact that we sin as proofe of sin nature.

Furthermore, stop using the doctrine of sin nature to prove that we have a sin nature.
You must first prove the doctrin of sin nature in order to use the the doctrine.

You must prove this so called "sin nature" by correctly interpreting Scripture and logical reason & common sence.

Quote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:
The curse of Adam's original sin is that we all physically die because we are cut off from the Tree of Life. Nothing more.

That's complete nonsense, so you are saying that we are not cut of from God only the tree of life

No, I am saying that the only thing Adam did was cut us off from the Tree of Life, which results in physical death.
We cut ourselves off from God by our own willful, intentional, volitional choice to disobey that which we knew was wrong.
This is the reason that we die spiritually.

We are condemed because we chose to sin while knowing it was wrong when we never had to sin in the first place.

Quote:
so that means our heart would be pure and aware of God when we are born.

Yes, our heart is pure when we are born.
We have no sence of right &/or wrong.
We don't have any intentions to do wrong.

It is not sinnful for a newborn to be selfish, for they can't be anything eles.
How do you expect a new born, when he/she is hungery to think, "I will wait untill mommy & daddy have enough sleep for 8 hours, then I will cry to let them know I am hungery."

That is rediculous.
When a new-born is hungery, all it knows is that it is hungery. It can not understand what, how, why, where, when...

Do not think for a second that newborns are wicked sinners.

The only thing we are aware of when we are born is lights, sound, cold, etc...

Later we are aware of hunger, poop, pee, etc...

The explanation becomes clear if we carefully consider the development of a child. As a baby enters the world the natural, inherited appetites are already developed. Appetites for food, comfort, love, safty...etc...
Along with these, the child's natural love of conscious freedom begins to express itself.

These appetites are not bad or wrong in & of themselves, in fact appetite is good unless it's used wrongly &/or not kept in check.
A person's will begins to form the habit of obeying desire; this "desire" is the appetite which deepens & strengthens as time passes. The danger comes when the appetites becomes toward unlawful things to be satisfied. The sin is realized when it is known to be wrong and willfully chosen to be continued in the knowledge of being wrong, thus becoming accountable.

Now, newborns are innocent, this doesn't mean that they are aware of God, for they don't even comprehend the awareness of the outside world around them except for the immediate visinity which may only be the room they are in.

Quote:
Quote:
Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what choose to do of our own volition, being influenced by what we love or what we put our affections on.

So if we are born with a clean Heart and can see God and are fully are aware of his majesty and Holiness we would then pour our love on him just because of who he is then we would naturally chose the right thing to do.


Let's get real hear.
You know that is not what I mean.

Quote:
The truth is we are not aware of God,

This is not sinful.
Nor does it proove that we are born sinful.
It only prooves that we are not aware.

Quote:
we are born lost,

Why are they lost?
what did they [b]do[/b] to [b]deserve[/b] God's departure for them to be lost?
How are they culpable for any deseret?

Quote:
we are born blind

Which is not a [b]fault[/b] of our own, therefore, it is worthy of no desert of condemnation.

Quote:
we are born with no knowledge of God

This is how we are created.
We are born totally depentant on others, knowing nothing.
When we are born, we are not at [b]fault[/b] of anything of our own, therefore, worthy of no desert of condemnation.

Quote:
we are born with a heart that's wicked

This is rediculous, not worthy of explainaition.

Quote:
we are born with a heart that sets it's affections on what it wants.

However, this is not sinnful for a new born.

Jer 17:9 supplanting is the heart of a man: frail & un-aidable: who shall comprehend it?

What this means is that the heart influences you to remove yourself from the source of true knowledge so that you may rely on it.
You cannot fix the heart to make it acceptable in this respect, for it is un-aidable.
God created our heart this way so that we must rely on Him and not ourselves.
However, it was not created for the purpose for which some use it. It is frail & weak as the flesh is, and no one can figure it out.

The reason that the heart is deceitful because we are deceiving ourselves when we need outside revelation, but instead, we rely on ourselves for wisdom.
The false heart knowledge and self-reliance seems “oh so right”, however, it is “oh so wrong”.

It is actually the mindset of the flesh, which Romans 8 talks about. It is when you rely on your heart; when we rely on your flesh, that you cannot please God.

Matthew 15:19-20, Jesus said: out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man.
Do not use this a your proof of this so called "sin nature".
God created our heart and it is with the same things that God called creation "good" in the beginning.

Fact is that our heart is still good even today. God calling it "good" only means it to be useful, serving a defined purpose. This is what God meant by calling creation good.

God created our heart as good and it remains good. But it isn't created for the purpose for which some use it.

Therefore, that which comes out of the heart is from what we [b]let come into it[/b].
We fill it ourselves with evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...

Fact it that we are suposed to guard &/or to keep our heart with all diligence (Proverbs 4:23), for out of it are the issues of life.
Therefore, it is our fault that what proceeds out of it is evil...

Do not blaim God who gave us our good heart for your fault of poluting it.
Do not blaim God for who gave us our good heart that you use it in a way that it was not designed for.

However, it is those thing which we let in our heart which defile us.
You are trying to say that we are defiled by default.

Quote:
The heart is the problem.

No, you are. Your heart is what you made it to be by your own choices.

In otherwords.
You are at fault for the condition of your heart, because you were suposed to guard it with all diligence; but you faild and poluted it with evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

Quote:
our heart is evil, mean, wicked, and nasty. It is defiled. It is corrupt. It is contaminated.

No, my heart is pure, and right before God, which yours should also be.

Quote:
We are born inclined towards we want

Amen!

 2010/2/23 11:51Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell said:
Paul states that all Scripture is profitable for "doctrine". David says he was "brought forth in iniquity". He needed a Savior from birth!

Okay.
Then we must only use hyssop in order to be clean & be whiter than snow, & it is the way God forgives us: Psa 51:7

Furthermore, you must believe that the world is flat having four corners (Rev 7:1).

You must believe that God spit water from His nose: Exo 15:8
You must believe that God blew smoke out of his nose: 2Sa 22:9, Job 41:20, Psa 18:8

You must believe that ice came from a womb: Job 38:29
You must believe that frost is made by being born: Job 38:29

You must believe that the Sun & Moon revolves around the Earth: Joshua 10:12-13, Psalms 19:4-6, Ecclesiastes 1:5.

Why don't you use these verses the same way you are using Psalm 51:5?

 2010/2/23 12:13Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2010
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Born in Sin with sin nature or not?

I have seen this discussion of whether one is born with a sin nature, or not born with a sin nature go back and forth many times. I am not sure the Bible ever really defines "sin nature", and I am not so sure everyone discussing it, including myself, could do a very good job of defining it. There is one scripture that says we were "by nature" the children of wrath, and perhaps that is where the term arises, but the contextual use of the term "nature" here is not the same as saying I possess a sin nature. What I am sure of are a few things that scripture is very clear on.

At one time our spirits were alive to God, or another way to put it would be that our spirits were in right relationship to God. Of course I am talking about the spirits of Adam and Eve before the fall. Adam's sin caused us all to be born in a "dead" state spiritually from that time until present. Not dead as having no spirit or having a spirit that was not functioning, but our spirits were dead to God. We were born into sin. We were by nature the children of wrath. We were alienated from the eternal life that is only found in being alive to God, in right relationship with Him. We can read Ephesians chapter 2 and realize this very clearly. Jesus uses the term "born again" to describe what happens at salvation and makes it clear to Nicodemus in John 3 that it is our spirits that must be born again, that must be made alive unto God. I was not in need of salvation through any choice of my own. It was not my individual acts of sin committed during my own lifetime that caused me to be a lost man in need of a savior. I was in need of salvation because I was the seed of Adam. Romans 5 is very clear about this.

If what I have described is what we define as "sin nature", then I would say yes, we are born with a sin nature. But if our definitions are not the same, and there is something different meant by the term, then my answer would necessarily change based on the definition of the term. I guess I don't usually use this terminology. I just stick to what scripture plainly says and say the same thing. The world by and large doesn't understand terms like "sin nature" and the church does not seem to agree on the definition. So on the one hand the language is not understood and on the other we have differing and often conflicting dialects.

Anway Mitydisciple. Hope that response helps

Travis




_________________
Travis

 2010/2/23 15:01Profile









 Re:

hyssop

 2010/2/23 17:42
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Veronica226said:
Quote:
Fact is, if we truly had a so called "sin nature" we would have an excuse before God for our sin.

Not true. While we cannot truly account for our sin nature, we still have to account for our sinS. Sin nature (aka the flesh) is just that: a nature.

It seems that an explanation of what the flesh really is needs to be given.
The flesh is our body, it is a tool, if you will. What matters is how we choose to use our flesh & what we choose to put or affections (desires) on.

The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral; it takes pleasure in whatever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern.

The flesh was created week from the beginning, in the Garden. It was never meant to be used as strength for resisting sin. It is one of the very reasons that Adam fell, lust of the flesh (1John 2:16)...

This is unchangeable, it will remain the same even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with, and that will happen in the resurrection.

Quote:
I actually find Isaiah 7:16 to prove sin nature. because it says: "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good," It's sounds like the child doesn't know to refuse EVIL. So he is actually choosing the evil rather than the good because he can't choose the good without Christ.

The Child here is the Messiah (Isa 7:14)
Do you really want to go there?

However, we are only accoutable for that which we have the ability for.
Since the does not [b]know[/b] to refuse evil, and choose good, he is not accountable for choosing either.

Quote:
Just because you don't understand that something is a sin doesn't mean you can't want to sin. Example: say someone doesn't know that having sex out side of marriage is a sin. But they WANT to have sex before marriage. They are by definition wanting to sin, even if they don't know it's a sin.

They are not doing that which they know is wrong.
They are not disobeying or rebelling anything, not even their conscience.
Therefore, it is only objectivley sin, but subjectivley not sin.
God looks at the heart; when someone does not know God or His laws, they will be judged according to their conscience. (Rom 2:14-15)
[b]Rom 2:12[/b] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.

The contrast to this verse is:
or as many as have [b]not[/b] sinned without law shall also be judged without law as innocent: and as many as have [b]not[/b] sinned in the law shall be judged by the law as innocent.

Quote:
If there is no sin nature how do you reconcile Romans 8?
For example Romans 8:12-14

Well, if you have the correct understanding of what the flesh is, you wouldn't need to reconcile this chapter.

See my explaination of the flash & it will make sence.

Here is a contextual understanding.
Rom 7:23 The “law of sin” in this verse is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.
The “law of sin” includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

This concludes that which is in our “members” (v.23) are the unlawful affections &/or desires which brings about spiritual death.

 2010/2/23 18:10Profile





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