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I agree people do confuse sin and temptation a lot. But I need to clarify the issue at hand is do we continually sin after we receive salvation or not.
I believe so. I believe Jesus died not just for past sins but for current and future sins. I do not believe that after we are saved, we become sinless creatures.
I believe that even though the Holy Spirit comes into you, I believe you will still be prideful, etc until the Holy Spirit gives you the power to overcome those sins. Sure, sometimes you can quit cold turkey but that would matter if we only had a few types of sins. I believe that each of us has a multitude of sins because we were of this world.
Even in the way we speak to each other, we are heavily encouraged to sugercoat everything we say and lie to others in society. Isn't lying a sin? When I talk about sin, I'm talking about all sins, not just the major ones in society.
| 2010/2/15 5:26|
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Quote:I would see her & acknowledge her beauty.
What if you saw a pretty girl walk by?
Just because I see a "hot chick" and acknowledge the fact that she is hot does not mean that I have lusted after her.
Quote:Yes, but that doesn't mean we can not win every single time.
Isn't it a constant war between flesh and spirit for all the days of my your life?
Be angry, but do not sin (Eph 4:26)
So everyone saved would have stopped cold turkey? Then we would be perfect after salvation?
Mat 5:48, Col 1:28, Php 3:15, 2Tim 3:17, James 1:4
Please answer this question:
what is making you sin that you can't stop?
Concering sin, whay can't you stop?
Quote:Jesus dies for our past sins. However, God does not foregive our future sins; that would mean God assumes that we will sin again. This would not be a loving attitude; Love believes all things & trusts all things (1Co 13:7)
I believe Jesus died not just for past sins but for current and future sins.
IOW, love believes that you will not sin and expects you not to.
Quote:All maknkind has the power to not sin already, otherwise it would not be justifyable for God to command against it.
I believe you will still be prideful, etc until the Holy Spirit gives you the power to overcome those sins.
The fact that we are able, but still choose to sin makes us culpable & guilty.
For, if we could not stop sinning we would not be disobediant rebels, but only invalids and not guilty.
Invalids are not to be condemned but pittied.
Quote:We can become sinless if we want to.
I do not believe that after we are saved, we become sinless creatures.
Sin is only a choice.
If you can choose not to sin once, then you can always choose not to sin again.
Think about this:
If you can't stop sinning, then what good is our relationship with Christ?
Is He only here to forgive us?
Or is Jesus the Object of our love that we may not sin against. (John 14:15, John 14:21, John 15:10, 1 John 5:2, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6)
Love fulfills the law. To love is the same as to be walking in the spirit.
I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh (Gal 5:16) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Rom 8:4).
[b]It is imposible to sin as you walk in the spirit.[/b]
| 2010/2/15 12:05||Profile|
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I have discovered that if you struggle against temptation, you will fail. I am not saying for you to give in to the temptation, only that you must rely on the Holy Spirit to overcome the temptation. If you don't rely and trust in the Lord's saving power, He is obligated to let you fail. Another Watchman Nee book entitled, The Overcoming Life describes this key revelation which seems counter-intuitive:
<i>It is one thing to say that we cannot make it, and it is another thing to give up trying to make it. Have we seen that there are these two things? We cannot make it, and we should not try to make it. Many times, we know that we cannot make it, yet we continue to try to make it. The first condition to victory is to realize that we cannot make it, and the second is to give up trying to make it. If we will admit that we cannot make it and give up trying to make it, we will overcome. The problem is that although we know that we cannot make it, we try our best to make it. We want to use our own effort and strength. We think that if we prayed more, we would make it, or if we made more resolutions, we would stand. Even though we cannot make it, we try to make it.
Suppose that there is an object weighing three hundred catties [a Chinese unit of weight]. Suppose further that you know that you can only lift two hundred catties. There is no way for you to lift a weight of three hundred catties. However, many people try to lift a weight that they know very well they cannot lift. They say, "I know I cannot make it, but why don't I give it a try?" They cannot make it, yet they want to try. It is one thing for a person to be unable to make it, and it is another thing for him to give up trying to make it. Since we cannot make it, we might as well not try to make it. "Lord, I cannot make it, and I do not intend to try to make it. I will not try anymore." Your hands have to let go completely. Letting go is a big thing. Since you know that you cannot make it, you should stay in that position and not try to make it. Recently, I have met many brothers who have repeatedly committed some sins. They confessed that they could not overcome. But I asked whether they were still trying to overcome. Eventually, they conceded and said, "What more can we do? We give up." God has crucified you on the cross and has given up hope in you. But you must also admit that you cannot make it. You must also acknowledge this.
Unfortunately, we still try to make it by ourselves. What does it mean to try to make it? Let me take temper as an example. Suppose you are a quick-tempered person, and you cannot control your temper. The more you try, the more you fail. You admit that you can do nothing about your temper. What should you do? You know with certainty that there is no way to control your temper, yet you still try to control it. Then what do you do? You try to be more careful when you speak with others. You try to avoid those with whom you cannot get along well, and you try to talk to those with whom you can get along well. You avoid fellowship with those who agitate you and run away from their face. Every time you are about to lose your temper, you try your best to suppress it. You try to suppress it with more prayers. What is this? This is being unable, yet at the same time trying to be able. You cannot make it, yet at the same time you try to make it. You cannot make it, yet you exert some effort in an attempt to make it. This kind of person will never overcome. He will never be able to say, "I am crucified with Christ."
Brothers and sisters, please remember that the condition of victory is acknowledging that we are unable, and the greatest barrier to victory is trying to be able. Victory is from Christ; it is Christ who is living on our behalf. The overcoming life requires that we take a stand and declare, "I cannot make it and I do not intend to make it. Please make it for me. I will not fabricate my own victory." If we do this, we will overcome. God cannot deal with people who always try to make it. God can do nothing for them. If we try to make it and if we resolve to make it, God will stop as soon as we start. Christ lives within us in order to live Himself out of us. The problem is that we try to preserve the wholeness of our own work. We must completely deny our own work before Christ can express His life through us. If we try to help Him a little and try to bring in man's work, God's grace will go away. If Christ does not overcome for us, whatever victory there is will be our own victory. Christ's power is not for the purpose of making up our lack. Christ's life is not for the purpose of patching the holes in our lives. He wants to live instead of us. If we want Christ to live instead of us, we ourselves must not live. We must first know that we cannot make it, before God will have His way. Do not try to linger on in the battle. The minute we fight we will lose. We hope to make it, and we think it would be wonderful if we could make it. But while we are struggling, Christ is not living within us.</i>
This is what is meant by glorying in my weakness. I can't, but Christ in me can. If you struggle with habitual sin and repeatedly fall, I strongly recommend that you read The Overcoming Life. It is available online at:
Click on the link at item #24
| 2010/2/15 12:49||Profile|
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Quote:Why is this?
I have discovered that if you struggle against temptation, you will fail.
Can't you just choose to not sin?
Quote:What will the Holy Spirit do so that you will overcome the temptation?
only that you must rely on the Holy Spirit to overcome the temptation.
Will He [b]make[/b] you to not sin?
Fact of the truth is, the Holy Spirit will encourage you not to sin.
He will remind you not to sin.
He will tell you the way of escape (1Co 10:13), but you must do the escaping.
Quote:The problem with this is that all mankind [b]IS[/b] able to control their temper.
What does it mean to try to make it? Let me take temper as an example. Suppose you are a quick-tempered person, and you cannot control your temper.
This example is starting on a false premise.
Quote:This is contradictory to the truth.
Brothers and sisters, please remember that the condition of victory is acknowledging that we are unable, and the greatest barrier to victory is trying to be able.
We are able by obedience to Him; all we need to do is LOVE HIM.
Quote:What does this mean?
Victory is from Christ; it is Christ who is living on our behalf.
Is Christ doing it for us?
Fact of the truth is that we choose to submit to Him.
This is an act of our will.
Victory [b]from[/b] Christ is wrong; He is our victory.
Victory is from obedience!
Quote:This is not a bad thing.
If Christ does not overcome for us, whatever victory there is will be our own victory.
Christ will not overcome for us.
He will not possess us and take over as a demon would.
This sounds real nice & all, but it is not applicable.
We don't just give up and hope to be taken over as a puppet.
The victory must be ours or there is no victory at all. It is our obedience to Him that gives us the victory.
When we have the victory, Christ is glorified in our obedience to Him.
Quote:What does this mean?
He wants to live instead of us. If we want Christ to live instead of us, we ourselves must not live.
How is this applicable?
It means that we are to be submitted to Him and do the things which He would have us do.
This is an act of our will.
Quote:To glorying in my weakness is to take pleasure in things beyond my control.
This is what is meant by glorying in my weakness. I can't, but Christ in me can.
However, [b]sin is never beyond any of our control[/b].
Those things which would be out of our control are [b]reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake[/b] (2 Corinthians 12:9-10)
| 2010/2/15 14:59||Profile|
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That Nee article sounds more like Buddhist/Zen philosophy than Christianity. If you stop trying you will succeed...
Jesus said to strive to enter in through the narrow gate.
Jesus said to be perfect.
Jesus said "go and sin NO more" - not "go and sin SOME more."
Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin, rip it out! and throw it as far as you can!
If your hand causes you to sin chop it off!
Great peace have those who love Your law,
And NOTHING causes them to stumble.
If we stumble then we must not love God's law! Why is that? God's law is perfect? The law requires us to love God and our neighbor. Of course we should do this! Of course we can love God and our neighbor! If we stumble it is because we choose to love ourselves MORE than others. We cannot serve two masters. If we love our selfishness we will HATE God's perfect law of love. And of course we will do nothing but stumble and grope about as in the dark.
I have taught you in the way of wisdom;
I have led you in right paths.
When you walk, your steps will NOT be hindered,
And when you run, you will NOT stumble.
Take FIRM HOLD of instruction, do NOT LET GO;
Keep her, for she is your LIFE.
Do not think to say to yourselves "we are Abraham's children"
Whatever a man reaps he will sow.
If you go to the grocery store and buy junk food will you return home to find healthy food in the bags? Of course not. Whatever you spend your earnings on, that is what you will eat.
Whatever way a tree falls that is where it will stay.
If a man dies in his sin he will stay in his sin.
If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a PERFECT man, able also to bridle the WHOLE BODY.
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth NOT his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, THIS MAN'S RELIGION IS IN VAIN.
If we do not bridle our tongues then our religion is in vain. If we bridle our tongues then we can be perfect. We must choose between perfection and useless vain religion.
| 2010/2/15 15:16|
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Quote:Yeah, Watchman Nee was a quack.
That Nee article sounds more like Buddhist/Zen philosophy than Christianity.
| 2010/2/15 15:23||Profile|
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i have found nee to be very helpful while reading normal christian life, i don't know about that quote though.
| 2010/2/15 16:41||Profile|
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i recommend brother to read this carefully on the sacrifice of Jesus, he died once for all.
1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. hebrews ch. 9 kjv
| 2010/2/15 16:45||Profile|
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24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
hebrews ch. 7
very important he died once and for all and his sacrifice wa sufficient for all sins to those who are justified by him. He is on the mercy seat forevermore to make intercession for the saints.
| 2010/2/15 16:48||Profile|
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When is the last time you sinned?
Will you ever sin again?
No disrespect to you logic but can anyone backup what he is saying? It sounds nice but I need to see someone live like that to believe it. I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE LIVE LIKE THAT.
It sounds like you can be PERFECT and flawless after you have the Holy Spirit in you. Or maybe even before the Holy Spirit is in you.
What about idolatry? I heard someone tell me that if you can't throw away anything in your life in that instant, it is idolatry.
Let's say you saved up for a TV or a guitar or even a nice meal. If you can't give it up in that instant, that is idolatry.
| 2010/2/15 17:31|