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 Re: What is named the church may not be...

Re:
by appolus on 2010/2/6 10:31:02

Hi Tom,

"I agree with much of what you say, I just do not think it is as black and white as you may suggest. Obviously the gates of hell shall never prevail against the true "Church." .......AND......."But what is the true church and does it have visibility? Even if you had a church full of genuinely regenerated people, it would still face challenges and it could still be weakened, just not fatally......brother Frank.




VERY GOOD POINT AND YOUR ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! I think of the pristine church of Ephesus , and Paul's famous exhortation to the elders there.

Acts 20


"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29."I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

30. and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

31"Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears."

..................



The church is continually being assaulted , and weakened, as was the birth mother of us all; as often the Devil makes genuine headway in weakening her. My point was that she would never be FATALLY weakened, as you mentioned. And your right, some of the church IS visible, or we would not have SI and the regenerated that post here.

Often that which is called the church, is not at all the church, and that she, [ the Holy bride ] is in Heaven, and is sprinkled throughout the earth...with some still in the clutches of Babylon.


We indeed have been weakened, and have failed in so many areas. The Promise is that we will endure, and overcome....thanks, tom.

 2010/2/7 7:33
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.

Brothertom, I'd like to take up on something that you wrote if I could:




Quote:
What I'm saying is that morality and righteousness are matters of the heart; the inner man. You cannot externally mandate what is right, or acceptable to people.




I believe that I understand what you are getting at also and especially that there isn't any law that can make a new heart in someone, or force them to do what is right. That seems to be much along with what the Apostle Paul is writting in Galatians 3:21.


But too, I also think there is a more fuller expression of this subject in the scriptures, particularly in considering what you had shared further, that:


'You cannot externally mandate what is right, or acceptable to people'.


I think we can also see(even in the scriptures) the power of laws and society to either restrain evil - or to unleashe it. Even like the power of an avalanche.



Isaiah says

"Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;"


and in turn, Solomon says that by wisdom kings reign, and princes decree justice. Or even further that, a land that is full of transgressions will also be full of rulers, but that a man with understanding and knowledge(presumably in government) can prolong the state thereof(Proverbs 28:2). I think this is much born out in the history of the people of Israel, and their kings?




And too, I think of how the scripture says even in the New Testament, that bad company corrupts good morals(1Co 15:33), and how that, this was written, not to people that had not recieved a new heart, but to those that had.





A while back, a verse from the scriptures was really impressed upon my mind. I think it is somewhat appropriate here for this topic also.

I was so impressed with this passage that one night I was walking down a certain street that is notorious for all kinds of filth and vile things, and I was carrying the Bible in hand, and I was asking people here and there if I could share this passage with them and get their thoughts about it.

A few of them oblieged me, and one small group even invited me to sit down and talk about it with them, so I did, and we read the whole passage together. It was somewhat awkward, but it seemed somewhat urgent also.



The next day, I saw on the news how a large mob of young people had literally rampaged down this street, probably not 2 or 3 hours later.


Well, what was the verse?


It was from the Psalms, Psalm 12, where it reads:




"The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."

















_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/2/7 7:59Profile









 Re: Inward conformity.



No doubt that evil breeds evil. I think of Sodom, where evidently the laws were so liberal, that homosexual rape was the order of the day. This is as I see it, the natural progression of secular humanism, and thereby the holy maxim; "The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."

It is a principle. when men cast off restraint, wickedness surges in like a flood. Yet, in Sodom, with all of it's super liberal politics, it is said of Lot that he was grieved by their wicked ways. It didn't change his heart, as it did the others. This is what I meant as to righteousness and morality being "matters of the heart."


Laws and society cannot really change that. Men can concede their crowns, but society and laws cannot take them, or effectively change them, unless a man surrenders .


There is also a difference between general permissiveness on a national level, and the individual, obviously. The entire old world was corrupt, even unto the death sentence upon them all. Noah acted by faith, in his heart. He did not concede to the general permissive law of the land.


I think that we entirely agree with one another, and it is a good point that you bring up. Peer pressure is a very, very powerful force that can indeed change our heart if we give into it.

 2010/2/7 10:22
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Tom: A good example of what you are saying is found in the book of the Revelation. I guess it depends on eschatalogical viewpoint, but the word says that during the 1000 year reign of Christ immediately following His return that He will rule the earth with a rod of iron. At the end of this Satan is loosed for a season and deceives many. Not everyone on earth at that time will want to conform to this rule. Zechariah 14 says that failure to comply will result in no rain on the land. Legislated morality if you will. Actually it is only legislated conformance to a standard of behavior. Morality is internal, behavior is external. Many people, probably most, at this time will not be moral (or if you will righteous and desiring to conform to God's ways)although law will require them to behave as if they were. Great for a society, but does nothing about the heart. Man must still make his own choice about surrendering to Christ, or not.

Travis


_________________
Travis

 2010/2/7 13:42Profile









 Re:

When I think of a great moral society, I think of Victorian Britain. Its leaders and middle and upper-classes were extremly moral backed up by all the laws of the land. Yet the majority of moralists in those days despised what were known as "enthusiasts." They being those who were completly sold out to Jesus as opposed to "Sunday Christians." The struggle, right from the time of the initial quote that started this thread is between those of a transformed life and the religious. One hates the other and makes itself an enemy of the other. The Sunday Christian, the religious, the Christian in name who is entwined in the State, the "Christian," in whom there is no regeneration, yet at the same time may be very moral and law abiding, seeks to legislate that very morality. Is there anything wrong with good moral legislation? Of course not. Better to have that than to have immoral legislation. Will it make the slightest bit of difference to the soul that stands before the Lord in that day to give an account? Will the Lord seek to know if one had led a moral life, or had dwelt in a moral country or had supported moral legislation? If Victorian England was the most moral country on the planet with the most moral legislation and then most of its dwellers went to hell, what was achieved.

It is interesting that William Wilberforce, an "Enthusiast," himself, sought for long years to outlaw slavery. Yet his greatest work may have been "Real Christianity," his great work on the subject of what true Christianity was. In this book he claims that the majority of religious people knew nothing of the new birth as had Whitfield before him. So, even in the great quest of Wilberforce to outlaw slavery, what difference would it make to a freed slave when he stood before God in that day to give an account? The question to the slave or former slave would not have been, "were you a free man on earth?"

Was it a great work of human society? Yes. Was it a great thing that America followed suit some 60 years later? Yes. Yet the question remains for every man, whether free or slave, "Do you know Jesus?" And in conclusion I would say that if laws are to be passed, then better to have good laws than bad, yet it is the much weightier question of the eternal destiny of the soul that the Lords people should be about.

ps This comment was not designed to raise issue of slavery, it was merely used as an analogy. To highlight what is eternal and what is not.

 2010/2/7 15:10
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again everyone,


Quote:
Is there anything wrong with good moral legislation? Of course not. Better to have that than to have immoral legislation. Will it make the slightest bit of difference to the soul that stands before the Lord in that day to give an account? Will the Lord seek to know if one had led a moral life, or had dwelt in a moral country or had supported moral legislation?




I think that is a fair question to ask, but not exactly as easy to answer as it is to ask it.

Why?



I think there is wisdom in the Apostle Paul's admonition to judge nothing before the time. I remember hearing a recording of Leonard Ravinhill in a certain compilation say that the most precious thing you'll ever handle is the human soul.

That is a staggering thought considering how the Lord Jesus relates the future judgment, in terms of how we, whether believers or unbeleivers, treated Him - [b]BY HOW WE TREATED OTHERS[/b].


Laws are one way that men may treat with each other, both to encourage or restrain both good and evil. And it, in my estimation, is not a simple thing(for us) to weigh the value of what that shall be in eternity from our vantage point of time.


I thought of a passage from the Proverbs of Solomon, it seems appropriate to share here in memory of the labor of William Wilburforce that was mentioned.



"If thou forbear to deliver [i]them that are[/i] drawn unto death, and [i]those that are[/i] ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider [i]it[/i]? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth [i]not[/i] he know [i]it[/i]? and shall [i]not[/i] he render to [i]every[/i] man according to his works?"


- Proverbs 24:11-12(KJV)



I think, in my low opinion, that Christians ought to follow whatever calling of God they are convinced that God has led them to, and do so with a conscience before Him, whether they are scorned as Sunday, State, pupet Christians or otherwise. And let the Lord be the Judge of His own works.












_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/2/7 16:35Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

When I came out of the subway this morning I stopped to read the front of a city paper in one of the boxes that had been catching my attention this week.


What I saw on the cover I think may well catch some of the differing tensions that are expressed here.


On the one hand, there was the main story, which from the caption, looked as though it was about a reporter for the paper that sort of went undercover in something called 'the Tea Party' to get an inside report on it?

I don't follow news or current events too much but I'm thinking this had something to do with a conservative movement in the Republican Party called the Tea Party? Am I close on that?



Ohh, the other thing that caught my attention?

A story featured in the top corner describing what it referred to as 'old people', in pornographic language.


Maybe the Tea Party wont suceed in legislating morality. Then again, maybe they'll be able pass laws so that little children that would happen to read what is tucked into the corner of the front page of newspapers like that, wont have to read what I read. OR ask their parents what it means, If they don't already know.


Mar 9:42.

It may be that we'll all be able to agree on the eternal value of such a thing.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/2/7 16:52Profile









 Re:

With all respect to ChrisJD,

The quote I started with has notihng to do with American politics. Its about the role of a Christian in society, whether that society was 1800 years ago in Rome, or a 1000 years ago in the dark ages throughout Europe or the time period after the reformation-1500s-1900s. Its an attempt to pull the lense back and see the bigger picture, the eternal value of things and ultimately what is really important.

I would argue that the Lord is at the door, that time is running out for humanity, that the terrible and notable day of the Lord is almost upon us. That should make us focus on what is eternally important. Politics and opinions on it come and go, it is in a constant state of flux as politicians pander to the people and the latest polls, no matter what side of the fence that they are on. What is unchangable is the Word of God and and the end of times. We are like the grass of the field, here today and gone tomorrow. Yet there is an eternity waiting for all of us. It is in that context the original quote was made.........Frank

 2010/2/7 18:56
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

There are those who are called of God to be plumbers. They will not cease to be plumbers as they fulfill the great commission, but will, through their own unique calling, bear great fruit for the kingdom. The same could be said for political figures. God calls men and women into the governmental arena, and it is in that arena that they will fulfill God's calling for their lives. So I would not say that politics is a total non-issue for believers. I do think that there is a segment of the body of Christ in America who have become so politically focused that they have lost sight of the thing that is truly important and most needful in this hour.


_________________
Travis

 2010/2/7 22:23Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Well put, twayneb.

There is a danger of individuals being so consumed by politics to the point that they neglect the greater importance of simply knowing Jesus Christ. There is also a danger of individuals so consumed by their own notion that politics or government is the "enemy."

The enemy of men's souls is not found in the Capitol, White House or on the throne of some distant land. The enemy of men's souls will try to use anything that can distract a child of God from truly knowing our Lord. It is interesting that money is not the root of all evil. It is the LOVE of money is the root.

Thanks for the reminder!


_________________
Christopher

 2010/2/7 22:52Profile





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