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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Would like some thoughts on how this Scripture is applied?

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Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

I guess then I was more in line with what you were reading than I thought.

One other question your question raises for me, is whether or not such an attitude of obstinacy to submission to the Word is even the behavior of a Christian at all. I have a hard time with separating faith and obedience. I really wrestle with the notion that I could be so blatantly rebellious to the things of God and still name the name of Christ. Which I guess brings us full circle to the issue of eternity. Unrepentant, perpetual, discovered and public sin is a sign of no true saving faith. Romans 6:14

Hence then all the other issues are superceded by the question of "Who is my mother and who are my brethren?"

"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Quotations from Matthew 12:48-50

These were the verses that originally came to mind when I first read your question that I was hesitant to respond with. But I do not think it would be a stretch to throw in the husband or wife into the same original question. The issue he raised was simply the relationship to him.


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/2/4 0:26Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings

Your wrote:

Quote:
Hence then all the other issues are superceded by the question of "Who is my mother and who are my brethren?" "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."


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Actually the same author has another teaching that speaks on this concerning family relationships and to be honest I have found it to be really challenging also. That is another thread though:)

Just wanted to say thanks again for sharing your thoughts with me.

God Bless
mj

 2010/2/4 1:03Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: Matt. 18:15-17

Matt. 18:15-17 "Now if your brother sins against you, be going, and show him his fault between you and him alone, if he hears you, you gained your brother. But if he does not hear,take along with you yet one or two, so that 'by mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.' But if he refuses to listen to them, tell to the assembly; but if he also refuses to listen to the assembly, he shall be to you just like the heathen and the tax collector."

Who are the proper candidates for the action spoken of in these verses?

"Now if your brother sins against you..."

A 'brother' would be anyone who is part of the assembly which profess the faith of Christ, therefore making the parties in this action fellow christians.

"...be going, and show him his fault between you and him alone..."

Here Jesus does not elaborate on any particular sin or sins. Therefore we may not speculate or vainly imagine sins which do and sins which do not fall under this general and plain statement of Jesus. Yet,we may meditate upon the wisdom of the proverbs here where we read, "Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins" and "The wisdom of a man hath deferred his anger, And his glory is to pass over transgression" (Prov. 10:12, 19:11). And again we read, "Brothers , if anyone among you is led astray from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him be knowing that the one having turned back a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19,20) Note James address is to 'brothers' and 'anyone among you'.

The first step being done, and to no avail, leads to the next step where the offended party is to "...take along with you yet one or two..."

After these two more informal proceedings have failed to bring the offender to remorse and repentance,the third and more formal step must be implemented and they must, "...tell to the assembly...".

If after this third step with all of the above being done in the spirit of Ga. 6:1 "Brethren, if a man also may be overtaken in any trespass, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering thyself--lest thou also may be tempted", "...if he also refuses to listen to the assembly, he shall be to you just like the heathen and the tax collector."

The Word of God states it plainly that there may be no other recourse than that which has been clearly delineated in the Words of our LORD Himself.

To answer your question, "Is a wife of a believing husband also his sister in Christ?", The simple answer is yes.

To answer your more difficult question, "Would this apply to a married couple as it would to any other brother or sister in Christ?", the framing of your very quesstion is a good indicator that there's more which would need to be said than that which has been said above. A married couple, (as has been mentioned already by another on this thread), have a different relationship as well as different responsibilities and duties to one another, and they're not merely 'any other brother or sister in Christ'.

Much else must be taken into consideration before,during,and after these steps are proceeded upon. Each particular case may vary, yet we are never to neglect the Word Of God to follow our own course of action thinking we know better.

It may be that marriages could be saved by following Christ's clear directives even in marital relationships. And why not if we truly trust in the Living God, His Word and His Power.

As one has rightly stated, ""Strangely, some never think of using church discipline, even informal discipline, when the two parties are husband and wife. Why not? A Christian husband and wife are not merely married persons, they are also brother and sister in Christ's church. Most marital problems could be resolved early by active, informal disciplinary action."

If the objection be made that this may open wide a door for a rebellious wife to exaggerate her husbands failures and expose some of his sins (or a prideful husband may do the same), I very well concur that this may indeed follow. Yet, we cannot ignore nor neglect God's express command to us as to how to handle offenses. The mere possibility and probability of this occuring must give way to our faith in an omniscient God rather than in our own wisdom and/or lack of it. Sin will surely show its ugly head in these and other matters, but may we be ever so discerning and be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

My concluding thought is that if your husband or wife "...shall be to you just like the heathen and the tax collector", how might this look in practice in comparison to your relationship 'to any other brother or sister in Christ'.

I know that there are some who'd take this to very unbiblical forms of action. I have seen the positive and the negative of all I have discussed above.

Sin plagues us all, that is one reason why Jesus said, "Beware of men" (Matthew 10:17).

Beware of men - "prosechete apo ton anthropon" in
Greek - hold your mind away from men. Be on guard
against men. Beware of men.

The word "men" is the English translation of "anthropon." It means "human beings" (Strong's #444). Our English word anthropology comes from this Greek word "anthropos." Anthropology is the study of mankind. And "anthropon" refers to human beings in general. Jesus said,

"Beware, be on guard against, human beings."

 2010/2/4 3:35Profile









 Re: Would like some thoughts on how this Scripture is applied?


As spouses, we are not to expose each others rebellious tendencies, but to cover them; to be loving and patient, because this is God's way with us.

1 John 1

7. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10.If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

We are deceiving ourselves, and condemned liars if we say we have no sin. most of our sin is EMBEDDED sin, locked deep inside our rebellious natures.

Romans 7

15. "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

It is obvious that this inherit and embedded rebellion does not evaporate instantly when we are saved. Marriage has a way of exposing our selfish and hateful hearts. God's way is through mercy, and long suffering nourishing one another.


Here is another biblical exhortation about long suffering, directed to the wife in this case, but applicable to the husband, for sure.


1 Peter 3

1. "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

2. While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear."...[ conversation here means how you live; not just words...]


The husband is won through the wife's mercy and love.

Godly humility and a life of mercy project conviction displayed that portray the character of God....Love and Mercy....and these bring conviction unto repentance and healing; not the boot upon the neck that condemns the guilty.


Have you ever struggled with an inward sin, say envy or greed or pride, that seemed impossible to be healed of? If you haven't. you haven't been saved long; for if you are a real Christian, you will.



I have seen divorces through the practice of these doctrines, and they usually come from a Pharasitical and controlling Pastorate. Your marriage is a holy sanctuary between 3, the wife, the husband and God, and it is to be worked out unto unity by love and forgiveness.


Yes, marriage counselling may help, if administered in the Spirit, by Godly and restorative men. There are also instances where we must not follow a spouse into evil. There are instances where separation for repentance sake is in order, and even..."If the unbelieving depart, let him depart, a brother or a sister is not in bondage in these cases."


This , of course, is the most severe judgment one must make, and only when all hope is swallowed up by rebellion.

 2010/2/4 8:57
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings Savannah

You Wrote:

Quote:
A married couple, (as has been mentioned already by another on this thread), have a different relationship as well as different responsibilities and duties to one another, and they're not merely 'any other brother or sister in Christ'.


___________________________________________________________

In my reading and understanding(and this is just my thoughts) this teaching does seem to some degree to place less importance on the marriage bond and relationship.It does mention the fact that there is no marriage in Heaven as another verse to show there should be no distiction when applying Matthew 18:15-17. This is one reason that I was having all these questions.


You wrote:
Quote:
As one has rightly stated, ""Strangely, some never think of using church discipline, even informal discipline, when the two parties are husband and wife. Why not? A Christian husband and wife are not merely married persons, they are also brother and sister in Christ's church. Most marital problems could be resolved early by active, informal disciplinary action."


___________________________________________________________

I will be honest that this had never occurred to me before but I am seeing more and more that if done in the love of Christ with the desire to see ones spouse, brother/sister restored it is a scriptural way to deal with believers who are walking in sin. I think though that much prayer and seeking God must take place before such a step is taken?

You wrote:
Quote:
If the objection be made that this may open wide a door for a rebellious wife to exaggerate her husbands failures and expose some of his sins (or a prideful husband may do the same), I very well concur that this may indeed follow. Yet, we cannot ignore nor neglect God's express command to us as to how to handle offenses.


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Again I think this is why I have found this portion of the teaching to be such a challenge for me. I had always considered the marriage bond and relationship to be above other relationships we have with other believers, and yet it can not be above the Word of God. I know that to be true also.

God bless
mj

 2010/2/4 11:22Profile
Wordizlife
Member



Joined: 2007/2/28
Posts: 86


 Re:

Christian married couples are brother and sister. I can even back it up.

in song of solomon, solomon refers to his girl as "sister."


_________________
Robin

 2010/2/4 11:46Profile





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