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Joined: 2008/4/3
Posts: 228


Please please may I say something? As I was reading Rainyday"s first post and the way it swerved almost immediately, I felt badly because of it.

I believe she had a legitimate concern for what she was hearing these ladies discuss and that if you had overheard the conversation, you might have a clearer understanding of her concern.

When my daughter-in-law to be was going to have a shower, a friend of hers remarked on making a trip to a certain store and I was very upset that she would say what she did in front of me and my daughter-in-law is very shy and discreet.

We need sometimes to remember to keep the marriage bed holy and unless I'm interpreting things wrongly myself, I have also heard "over the top" sort of things spoken where a warning buzzer went off. Was she judging the conversation, or grieved through the Holy Spirit? Love between married couples has long been affected by the world's over rated view of romance and stress on intimacy.

I don't think this dear saint intended anything but to question certain things that were discussed. I trust that she felt safe inquiring about it here, and I did not detect any harshness in her post.

Maybe we have been too affected by the world in yet another holiday and what it represents. Rainydaygirl, I'm blessed that you are so content by not setting the same sort of standards on one day as many. I bless your house for your husband's desire to provide and do what is most pleasing before the Lord. God bless.


 2010/2/1 5:30Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Love between married couples has long been affected by the world's over rated view of romance and stress on intimacy.

With all due respect, I have to strongly disagree here. This is the type of thing I have challenged in this thread; not because I enjoy a conflict, but because this is very serious territory and a lot of confusion exists here. The devil did not invent romance- God did. Nor did the devil invent intimacy. I am more inclined to say that the world has lost it's way in romance and all that is left is a cheap lust in which the masses having lived in fornication before marriage and have almost no real ability for intimacy. Consider this passage from Proverbs 5:

[i] Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets. Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee. Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?[/i]

There is a danger in Proverbs 5 that the antidote is given for. That danger is adultery. The antidote? Be thou [i]ravished[/i] always with her love. The context is clearly affection and attention. Let your fountain be blessed and [i]rejoice[/i] with the wife of your youth. This is the joy of marriage that protects men and women from [i]real[/i] sin. Setting boundaries that God did not set is a recipe for scandal. We have to take God seriously here and not esteem ourselves wiser than He.

The time would fail us to examine the Song of Solomon. It sounds scandalous even to many of our ears. Is this gushing? We are light years past giving flowers and going to dinner. That would be childs play compared to this revelation. But the Holy Spirit is the author. Solomon wrote as he was moved by the Holy Spirit. This tells me that romance and intimacy has it's origin in God and the devil knows noting about it.

You have stolen my heart, my sister, my bride;
you have stolen my heart
with one glance of your eyes,
with one jewel of your necklace.

How delightful is your love, my sister, my bride!
How much more pleasing is your love than wine,
and the fragrance of your perfume than any spice!

Your lips drop sweetness as the honeycomb, my bride;
milk and honey are under your tongue.
The fragrance of your garments is like that of Lebanon.

Robert Wurtz II

 2010/2/1 7:45Profile

Joined: 2007/2/28
Posts: 86


After reading RobertW's reply I cant wait to get married!!!!!


 2010/2/1 8:49Profile

Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991


I wanted to share something that has been precius to me and something i have re-read over and over again many times.

A little nook in the very heart of God

God's plan for every marriage is happiness.

Marriage is meant to be a miniature of heaven—a
fragment of the celestial blessedness, let down into
this world.

Marriage is meant to be a little sanctuary, into which
husband and wife may flee from earth's storms and
dangers, where in love's shelter, their hearts fed with
affection's daily bread—they may dwell in quiet peace.

Marriage is meant to be a shelter in which, covered
from the frosts of the world and shielded from its cold
and tempests—two lives may grow together into richest
beauty, realizing their sweetest dreams of happiness,
blending in whatever things are true, whatever things
are pure, and attaining the finest possibilities of godly

Marriage is meant to be a holy ark, floating on the wild
floods of human life—like Noah's ark on the deluge,
bearing to heaven's gates, to the harbor of glory—the
lives which God has shut within its doors.

A godly marriage is a little nook in the very heart of
God, where faithful souls are held close to the Father's
heart, and carried safely, amid dangers and sorrows, to
the home above!

(J. R. Miller, "The Marriage Altar" 1898)


 2010/2/1 9:18Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


After reading RobertW's reply I cant wait to get married!!!!!

Marriage is not a drudgery if we are careful to listen to God's counsel. Whether one marry's or not should be based upon God's purposes and the 'gift' that each of us has (I Cor. 7). But I don't mind saying that we can live good lives as believers. Some young people are under the impression that God's will for their life is to marry someone and live [i]miserably[/i] ever after. they think they need to marry a sinner to find some excitement. Just keeping it real here. This is also why many go into sin because they think living a Christian life is meant to be some dull dead existence. But that is the lie of the devil.

[i]For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.[/i] (Jer. 29:11)

Over and over in Proverbs we are given wise practical counsel about our daily existence. We can't always live on the mountain and drink straight grape juice. There is a practical side to our spiritual lives that requires that we study God's word and not seek to somehow improve on it by adding to or taking away from (it). Proverbs 1 tells of the finality of those that refuse God's counsel. It is a book loaded with practical instruction on how to keep ourselves from scandal.

When do people generally try to get romance in marriage? [i]After[/i] they find out their spouse has been cheating on them. Then they burn their car up trying to get to Borders Books or the local Christian book store to get The Five Love Languages or some other book to help them get past it. I don't say that as a criticism; but as a warning to those that think they stand- take heed lest you fall. You are not too spiritual for a little romance in your life. God forbid that any would have to learn this advice the hard way. Society is loaded with scandal- but we are not ignorant of the devil's devices if we are willing to study and apply what God has said.

Robert Wurtz II

 2010/2/1 9:20Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497


RobertW and Christian - I love your posts! They are so sweet and so true!

Someone has said that only Christians can experience real romance because they do it God's way by confining themselves only to each other and concentrating on serving the other. And I agree.

It is easy to settle into a routine after marriage and perhaps the 'fire' wanes some. There is a lot of danger when this is allowed to continue indefinitely. It is like one poster said - another will come along and with sweet words minister to an emotional need that developed because these desires were left untended.

Having said all this, I do think that to demand expensive gifts as a symbol of one's love is selfish. Period. Little things done on a regular basis mean so much and they cost little. This is what helps to keep the fires of romance alive. Hugging and kissing in public is not proper - unless one is fixing to leave for some time, like at an airport - but you could hold hands! I still thrill to the feel of my husband's strong, large hands. It reminds me how much bigger he is then me and that I am safe with him! :-)


Sandra Miller

 2010/2/1 10:59Profile

Joined: 2007/1/15
Posts: 365

 Re: romance and Valentine Day?

Hi All,
Interesting posts.
Let me begin by saying that i'm all for date nights and romance, bless God! I'm not sure about the expensive gifts part but then that's relative too! Depending on your financial resources, a $100 gift is nothing to one and expensive to another.

That said, there's a whole lot of foolishness that folk can get into on account of Valentine's day. If the DHs of the sisters in rdg's church are happy to provide said expensive gifts to their DWs, all is well. If it's a noose round their necks, that's a whole 'nother matter altogether.

Not sure who said this but i agree...Christian marriage should be a picture of heaven. I believe God instituted marriage out of His great big heart of love.

Rdg, as long as you and DH are happy in your expressions of love to one another, i think all is well. Besides, you could find some inspiration in the Song of Solomon too. There are portions there you could read to DH.

Our church is full of young unmarried uns many of whom have no notion of what a joyful, godly marriage is. Because of this, I'm conscious of my interactions with DH in public. I'm glad that a few of my single girlfriends have remarked to me how they would love to have a marriage like mine.

DH and i are active in church, he in bible-studies, moi, in leading worship. So folk know we love Jesus but it's also important to me that they know we also ENJOY being with each other. We have fun, we laugh, hug etc. We love gushing over each other.....especially in public!
All that is spiritual too!

Peace to all


 2010/2/1 11:34Profile

Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


After many tears spent this last night and asking my dear husband to please forgive me for causing such a mess, I thought that I might try with this one last post to share with you all again what was on my heart. It is my prayer that I will not blunder things so badly this time.

When I was younger(not all that long ago) I spent a good deal of my time in love stories. I use to fantasize for hours about my prince and how he would one day sweep me off my feet. I use to make up my own little stories and imagine that this was how marriage to my prince would be. I would give him my heart and he would give me his and just like Darcy and Elizabeth we would spend all our days and nights completely in love and I would be the center of his universe. Then I met my husband, and he was not the prince I always dreamed about, and marriage was not full of romance all the time, and things were not as I always imagined they would be. Instead of fantasy there was life to be dealt with. When I came to the Lord, I knew if I wanted my marriage to last, one of the things that I had to die to was all these notions I had of marriage and romance from movies and books because they were all about self. Things like valentines day, candies, flowers and diamonds didn't seem to have the same a lure to me as I once thought they did. I no longer needed the intensity of a Hollywood romance because I found in Jesus that loving my husband and caring for him more then I did self was a better way.(for me) It was really self on my part that desired to be the center of the universe or to hold anothers heart completely. Over time I came to see that Jesus is the only one who should ever hold that place in our life. The more time I spent in seeking the Lord the more I am seeing that loving another is not about what they can or have to do to prove their love by observing certain days or buying gifts. Its more about the every day things and knowing that my husbands desire is the same as mine to walk with the Lord together. To make Jesus the one who matters most in both our lives.

The women that I was talking with were talking about valentines day, and their plans, their date nights. One of them mentioned how she had picked out a very expensive pair of diamond earrings that her husband had better not forget to get her. They were talking about their plans for the day, dinners, gifts, and the like. It really reminded me of all the Hollywood hype of what love is and so that is when I opened my mouth and asked them what would happen if they didn't get the gifts or the flowers, or the earrings? Why was that so important to them and so it began. Then I came here and I posted in such a way that made some very upset and I know I did not word things very well because people kept saying your judging and I really was not trying to. Again I am sorry, I was more trying to understand if it is truly healthy for us as young women to be getting so caught up with expecting these things, these kind of romantic things that the world says husbands must do if they really love us? I was not trying to say that it is wrong if one spouse desires to do these things for the other, but should any of it be expected as a way of proof? Compared to many here I am a baby christian and I know I have much to learn but it is confusing when I look to the Word and it talks about sacrifice and putting others first and the two coming together as one to further His Kingdom and yet there are those who profess His name who tell me that what really matters in a marriage is buying gifts and candle lite dinners, and spending every moment making the other person feel special. Is that honestly really humanly possible to do even, I mean spend all your time in your marriage making your spouse feel happy and special all the time? I guess I am trying to figure out what is love? and what is a good marriage?

As for affection in public I did not say it was sinful or wrong to hold hands, or hug but i do think even those in the church go to far at times with this. Also for the record I did not say that my husband and I do not have intimacy, I said we do not gush all over each other, (I should have added in public as some of our friends do.) My husband is not romantic, this is not something new to me either. He was never romantic when we first dated(we were very young) but he is a really great guy and I am thankful for him. He has grown and matured in the Lord and like me he still has areas that he needs to die to. For me knowing that Jesus is the love of his life actually gives me great comfort because I know he does not want to walk in such a way to bring sorrow to his first love...Jesus!!

Anyway if you read this far thanks for letting me try to clear things up. I really do hope that I have been able to better convey what I was trying to say and not that I was speaking against what others do in their marriage. If I still have written in such a way that someone finds offensive please know that was not the intention of my heart ever. Some of this is what is running through my mind this morning. I also wanted to take a moment and say thank you to some who posted in the thread, what you shared really did help.

thank you

 2010/2/1 11:36Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri



Thanks for sharing here. I for one am absolutely not offended at all. This thread has gone in different directions than just the original posts. I surely wish you and yours all the best. Be encouraged in the Lord! We serve a wonderful Savior that cares about these things! He knows where we are and is concerned about even the little things. Delight yourself in Him all your days and you will marvel at what He will bring to pass. God Bless.

Robert Wurtz II

 2010/2/1 12:05Profile

 Re: romance and Valentine Day? Lotta rape; little romance.


"Valentine's Day started in the time of the Roman Empire. In ancient Rome, February 14th was a holiday to honour Juno. Juno was the Queen of the Roman Gods and Goddesses. The Romans also knew her as the Goddess of women and marriage. The following day, February 15th, began the Feast of Lupercalia.

The lives of young boys and girls were strictly separate. However, one of the customs of the young people was name drawing. On the eve of the festival of Lupercalia the names of Roman girls were written on slips of paper and placed into jars. Each young man would draw a girl's name from the jar and would then be partners for the duration of the festival with the girl whom he chose. Sometimes the pairing of the children lasted an entire year, and often, they would fall in love and would later marry.

Under the rule of Emperor Claudius II Rome was involved in many bloody and unpopular campaigns. Claudius the Cruel was having a difficult time getting soldiers to join his military leagues. He believed that the reason was that roman men did not want to leave their loves or families. As a result, Claudius cancelled all marriages and engagements in Rome. The good Saint Valentine was a priest at Rome in the days of Claudius II. He and Saint Marius aided the Christian martyrs and secretly married couples, and for this kind deed Saint Valentine was apprehended and dragged before the Prefect of Rome, who condemned him to be beaten to death with clubs and to have his head cut off.

He suffered martyrdom on the 14th day of February, about the year 270. At that time it was the custom in Rome, a very ancient custom, indeed, to celebrate in the month of February the Lupercalia, feasts in honour of a heathen god. On these occasions, amidst a variety of pagan ceremonies, the names of young women were placed in a box, from which they were drawn by the men as chance directed.

The pastors of the early Christian Church in Rome endeavoured to do away with the pagan element in these feasts by substituting the names of saints for those of maidens. And as the Lupercalia began about the middle of February, the pastors appear to have chosen Saint Valentine's Day for the celebration of this new feast. So it seems that the custom of young men choosing maidens for valentines, or saints as patrons for the coming year, arose in this way.'

It seems that Valentine's day was simply a ploy by the Emperor of Rome to keep his vast legions sexually satisfied by conscripting young girls and forcing them into sexually slavery for their use. It was nothing more than a veteran's benefit. He of course made it mandatory by assigning it to the whim of the queen of heaven herself; the chief demoness of all the god's.

If the soldier chose to marry the girl he could, or move on as he chose. It was shameful and cruel sexual abuse, established as law. Leave it to the Catholics to create a saint out of the carnage.

I think it is harmless today. Just another commercial, guilt driven holiday, . Beware if you forget the flowers. You don't really love her....

I don't think it matters if you celebrate it or not, but I assure you it is meaningless either way.

 2010/2/1 13:26

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