| Poster | Thread | KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
Endtimes becomes a little more easier to understand when you understand more of the New Covenant
Indeed, and the New Covenant was established with the purposing of saving the Jew and bringing them back again into the land in the age to come.
_________________
Jimmy H
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|  2010/1/13 18:38 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Romans 11 (King James Version)
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. |
| | 2010/1/13 18:44 | | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Not to spam, but earlier I posted the following, and would really encourage everybody in this thread to really re-consider the following:
Quote:
I don't have time to go verse by verse through the following passage, but I would highly commend to you a detailed study of Isaiah 49, which outlines these things wonderfully.
Consider some of the following verses that describe this Messianic task:
49:5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), 6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."
49:8 Thus says the LORD, "In a favorable time I have answered You, And in a day of salvation I have helped You; And I will keep You and give You for a covenant of the people, To restore the land, to make {them} inherit the desolate heritages;
A couple deductions from these verses.
1) In verse 5, Jesus acknowledges part of His Messianic mission and task is to bring unrepentant Israel back to the Lord.
2) In verse 6, Jesus in fulfilling His Messianic task will take the Lord's salvation to the ends of the earth (Gentile mission).
3) In verse 8, Jesus is given as a covenant for the Jews, "to restore the land, to make them inherit the desolate heritages." Thus, part of the New Covenant the Lord made in the very person of Christ is for the purpose of causing the Jew to permanently inherit the land promised to Abraham and His children, the land that was destroyed by the Assyrians and Babylonians.
This is a major Messianic passage that needs to be rightly considered.
_________________
Jimmy H
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| | 2010/1/13 19:13 | Profile | Tears_of_joy
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Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554
| | Re: Art Katz | | BeYeDoers asked:
Quote:
Jimmy, have you read any of Stephen Sizer on this issue of Zionism?
Do you believe it is God's plan to wipe out the Palestinian Arabs so that Israel can have "its" land back?
To me, this poses a big problem considering all the Christian (who no one can argue are God's elect, being true Israel according to faith) Arabs sharing this land with Christ-hating Israelites.
Areadymind answered:
Quote:
The view propounded by Art Katz had nothing to do with Zionism, he despised how the Jews treated the Palestinians. Yet he would have explained how Zionism fit into the backslidden state of Israel. Like I said before, you cannot fit Art in ANY category. It would not be through a political Israel that Israel would inherit the land, but through National Jacob being tried through the fires of the cross, they would become true Israel. Do not confuse his eschatology with politics, that would be to completely miss the point. This thread has barely even scratched the surface of his views. I would recommend listening to his speakings a while before even really assuming you understand what he talked about.
I have listened to over 40+ of his prophetic, Israel dealing sermons, and am just barely wrapping my mind around it all. Please listen to them before you jump to conclusions. As it seemed to be one of Art's entire purposes in life to scour away at many of men's traditions as it pertains to these end-time issues.
Very well said brother, you took my words.
It's interesting that many believe that 1948 was year when God fulfilled the prophecy when He will gather finally the Jews into the land, but that's far from the truth, I believed the same once, but not anymore. Reading and listening to Art, and studying some history behind Zionism and the Synagogue of Satan and who all are behind the present day state of Israel, opened my eyes greatly. So many Christians today thinking that when they support the present state Israel, they are in God's favor, and the truth is just the opposite.
Art Katz in one interview said that this present state is made just to be destroyed again.
Here is one sermon where Art is speaking about the present state of Israel - [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=10808&commentView=itemComments]Israel 1948 What was God doing by Art Katz[/url]
And also a book that is really eye opening -
[url=http://web.archive.org/web/20071222091130/www.benisrael.org/writings/online_books/holocaust_where_was_God/shoah_contents.html]The Holocaust: Where Was God?[/url]
But I will quote Areadymind again,
Quote:
This thread has barely even scratched the surface of his views. I would recommend listening to his speakings a while before even really assuming you understand what he talked about.
KingJimmy said:
Quote:
Neither Art nor I are a fan whatsoever of the carnal Zionism which exists today. God is not interested in establishing this carnal political movement as the praise of the earth. He is intereted in only destroying it and bringing it to death. But in doing so, He plans to breathe resurrection life into the dust of the earth so as to cause that which is created of Him to live.
Yes, exactly.
It was very interesting to me when I read that such people exists:
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.nkusa.org/
These people are orthodox Jews, they are still blind to the gospel, but it was surprising to see them saying that they should not be brought into the land by a political means and wars, but they are scattered among the nations because of their sins, and only God through His redemptive power will bring them back, through His ways, not wars or politics. |
| | 2010/1/13 19:26 | Profile | Tears_of_joy
Member
Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554
| | Re: | | Dear ADisciple, you said:
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In the Cross, our Lord Jesus Christ broke down the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile, creating in Himself of the two ONE NEW MAN, so that now in Christ there is "no difference" between Jew and Gentile
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It is a hard thing to believe, I know, and so much teaching still refuses to accept what the apostles clearly taught... that in Christ Jesus there is no longer any difference between Jew and Gentile (Rom. 10.12, Rom. 3.22, Acts 15.9). God has created a NEW MAN.
Apostle Paul in other place said:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
You are very right when you say that there is no difference [i]in Christ[/i] i.e. our access and salvation in Him.
But, this does not eliminate the [i]different[/i] purposes and tasks of the Jews on the earth, as it does not eliminate the different purposes and tasks of the males and females here on earth. The task of the wife is to submit to her husband etc This is not eliminated, although "all are one in Christ Jesus. " Could you see the point?
Dear ADisciple, I believed as you do all my life, and I am so sorry for that, because I robbed God of His Word. Why? Because of this kind of spiritualizing the Scriptures i.e. it is not what is written, it is something else, and this something else could be anything else, for me this, for other something different, you can play with allegories as much as you want. We are to be spiritual men, but to be a spiritual men with spiritual understanding that does mean that you are doing or understanding things according to the Spirit, spiritual thing could be to go dig the garden all day, if that's what the Holy Spirit wants from you, the spiritual thing is not something that flows in the air. I am so sad about this wrong understanding that I had once.
I have so much to say and share, I have spent two years in deep study and agony just on this subject. But forgive me that I am not able much to write now and be involved in the forums.
Have you studied the history of how and when this alegorization and spiritualizing came to be? The facts that you will discover are astonishing. Beginning with Origen, Constantine, Augustine, Catholic Church and their influence on Calvin, Luther and the Reformation, and respectively their influence on today's thinking in most evangelical churches. Believe me, the facts are amazing. I was shocked. I am talking here mainly about their eschatological view, and their view on Israel, Jews and God's Kingdom. But of course this doesn't stop there.
And when you will see this, you will see many Scriptures, I mean hundreds upon hundreds, mainly the prophetic Scriptures, how come to their place, and you will see that they don't contradict with what Paul and others wrote, but are in wonderful balance. Otherwise, you will need to say of "hundreds" that they are not what is written, but something else.
Brother Eli has compiled pretty much good collection of articles on this subject:
http://olivetdiscourse.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=6&Itemid=43
If you would like to talk and hear more about my personal experience, please write me a PM and maybe we can exchange something more.
P.S. Many are quoting Jeremiah 31:31-33, but are stopping just there, but if you continue to read until the end of the chapter, there are quite staggering words by the Lord, how can this be spiritualazed? Jer. 31:35-37; It's so clear and simple, if one read it without prejudice. Also
Jer 33:20-26; Isa 54:9, Isa 54:10 etc |
| | 2010/1/13 20:12 | Profile |
| | Re: | | "Stephen Sizer
Stephen Sizer is a vehement enemy of Christian Zionists who love and support Israel according to the word of God.
This man has applauded Iranian President Ahmadinejad for having looked forward to the day when Zionism will cease to exist'. "
just google his name and you wil see where he is coming from.
Just an example:
http://www.bmja.net/chai233.htm
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| | 2010/1/13 20:29 | | ADisciple
Member
Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada
| | Re: | | Hi Tearsofjoy:
I do appreciate the tender tone of your post.
Quote:
But, this does not eliminate the different purposes and tasks of the Jews on the earth, as it does not eliminate the different purposes and tasks of the males and females here on earth. The task of the wife is to submit to her husband etc This is not eliminated, although "all are one in Christ Jesus. " Could you see the point?
I certainly understand your point. But I don't accept that the Jews on earth have what you call a different purpose and task.
Paul the apostle was himself a Jew, as were Peter and John, who were responsible for a large portion of our New Testament. And what purpose do we find them opening up for both Jew and Gentile alike in the New Covenant? From Paul we discover that we, Jews and Gentiles TOGETHER are "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord, In whom ye also are builded TOGETHER an habitation of God in the Spirit" (Eph. 2.20-22).
It's this that God is working toward: the unveiling of His own habitation in the earth, His own dwelling place, a Temple made of living stones of which Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone, a Temple builded TOGETHER of both Jew and Gentile believers alike. It is ONE PURPOSE for both Jew and Gentile: His eternal purpose in Christ Jesus our Lord (Eph. 3.11).
This is what Paul called the "FELLOSHIP of this mystery" (Eph. 3.9)-- and what an awesome holy mystery it is. It was the chief burden of the apostle Pauls' ministry, a revelation He received from God (Eph. 3.3). The FELLOWSHIP of the mystery: Jew and Gentile TOGETHER.
"...That the Gentiles should be FELLOWHEIRS, and of the SAME BODY, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel" (Eph. 3.6).
...That's New Covenat truth, and it just causes me to tremble.
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Because of this kind of spiritualizing the Scriptures i.e. it is not what is written, it is something else, and this something else could be anything else, for me this, for other something different, you can play with allegories as much as you want.
God forbid that I or any other man should do that... and try to make things say anything we please. We'll be judged for that. No, we must see through the eyes of the Holy Spirit Himself. What HE intended in the scriptures, the way HE spiritualizes them, is the only right interpretion.
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We are to be spiritual men, but to be a spiritual men with spiritual understanding that does mean that you are doing or understanding things according to the Spirit, spiritual thing could be to go dig the garden all day, if that's what the Holy Spirit wants from you
That's right on.
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Have you studied the history of how and when this alegorization and spiritualizing came to be?
No, but please don't do me the disservice of lumping me in with all that. I seek very diligently with the help of the Holy Spirit to hold close to the way the apostles interpreted Scripture. And actually Paul himself uses the word allegory, saying that the whole story of Sarah and Hagar was an allegory of the two covenants (Gal. 4.24).
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And when you will see this, you will see many Scriptures, I mean hundreds upon hundreds, mainly the prophetic Scriptures, will come to their place, and you will that they don't contradict with what Paul and other wrote, but are in wonderful balance. Otherwise, you will need to say of "hundreds" that they are not what is written, but something else.
Actually they have come into place for me. Not that I understand it all by any stretch, but I see a beautiful harmony in the scriptures of the Old Testament when-- with the help of the Holy Spirit who inspired them in the first place-- I shine the light of the New Covenant on them. In that Light, I see what HE intended when He inspired them in the first place.
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Many are quoting Jeremiah 31:31-33, but are stopping just there, but if you continue to read until the end of the chapter, there are quite staggering words by the Lord, how can this be spiritualazed? Jer. 31:35-37; It's so clear and simple, if one read it without prejudice.
Verse 37 promises that God will never "cast off all the seed of Israel."
And that is absolutely right. He hath not cast of His people whom He foreknew (Rom. 11.2). What He did was make a NEW covenant with them... and in infinite grace bring the Gentiles in to share it with them! I'm GLAD for that! Oh, I am glad for that! :)
...How awesome all this is!
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Allan Halton
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| | 2010/1/13 21:04 | Profile | ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
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| | Re: | | Quote:
But the fullness of those spiritual realities cannot be unleashed from heaven until God establishes Jerusalem as the praise of the earth, with Jesus ruling and reigning for a thousand years.
...We are back to my question, Jimmy. What City would that be?
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Many of you keeping using the word "spiritual." But may I suggest to you that the word the way you use it is entirely empty of meaning unless God does these "spiritual" things in the "natural" realm.
I agree with you fully. God's plan is to reveal spiritual reality right here in the earth where it is needed.
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These things are so spiritual that He establishes the Jew in the land promised to everywhere Abraham physically walked upon and sojourned in.
Actually God did that when He brought the people into the land of Canaan. The earthly type was fulfilled.
But David, while actually dwelling in that land of Promise, still called himself "a sojourner" (Ps. 39.12).
Not only that, he said all his fathers also were sojourners.
Why? I suggest it is because along with Abraham they had caught a glimpse of "a better country," and a City whose architect and builder is God (Heb. 11.16).
The question is, have WE seen that City?
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The "spiritual" view that I see proposed here doesn't give me anything I can wrap my head around. I still don't understand what it is this "spiritual" state will be like in the age to come. Not to sound rude, but do you even understand what you are proposing? I still am unsure myself of what exactly you are proposing. I just don't get it.
I understand where you are coming from, Jimmy, and I respect that. I'm not sure I can say more than I have said already. I think if you will review my posts with an open and honest heart, and take them before the Lord, you would see this is not something I myself am "proposing," but is the substance of New Covenant revelation.
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I wonder, do you even believe there will be a physical resurrection?
I'm sorry you would even think it necessary to question that. You must be misunderstanding me at a pretty deep level.
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I still can't identify what it is you expect for the next age
Maybe that's because I am anticipating in THIS age a lot that many have relegated to the next (including the first resurrection).
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He makes it possible to experience the realities of heaven here on earth. He does so in part in this age, and it's fullness in the ages to come.
I fully agree. It's just that there is far more to be revealed in this age than is generally accepted and taught.
...And if we are not seeing eye to eye on things like this, we will continue to forbear one another in love, won't we.
_________________
Allan Halton
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| | 2010/1/13 21:36 | Profile | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
...We are back to my question, Jimmy. What City would that be?
Again, that would be Jerusalem. But where you and I differ here, so far as I have understood you, is that you believe these spiritual realities and this spiritual city will exist without any consideration whatsoever of Jerusalem. I'm saying they will not exist apart from it. So far as I have understood you, you are proposing an "either...or" solution, whereas I am proposing a "both...and" solution.
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Actually God did that when He brought the people into the land of Canaan. The earthly type was fulfilled.
This is a common misconception. God's bringing the Jews into the land of Canaan was definitely a fulfillment of His promises to Abraham. But it was not the ultimate fulfillment, and it has never been fully realized at any time in all of history. Indeed, the promise cannot ever be fully fulfilled until we enter the next age, after the resurrection of the dead. Why? Because the promise was not to just Abraham's children that they would possess the land, but the promise was to Abraham HIMSELF, that he would possess the land. This, according to Hebrews 11, Abraham never did. Rather, he merely lived as a sojourner in the land promised to him by God. It is a land he will indeed inherit in the age to come, when his dead body is quickened to life, and he is raised from the dead. He died in hope of this very thing.
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Not only that, he said all his fathers also were sojourners.
Indeed, David recognized he and others have merely been sojourners here on this earth and in this life. They have recognized they are just people who are passing through this life, and that in this life, there is nothing here that is lasting. They recognize they are not of this world and that their citizenship is ultimately a heavenly one. However, with that said, David's usage of this word is not used in the same context of Hebrews 11 in regard to Abraham. Abraham was literally a sojourner in the land of promise. He was a man who lived in a tent, wandering around as a nomad in the land God had promised him. The only part of the land that he could ever claim for himself was the place he buried his wife, Sarah.
No doubt, Abraham like David was also merely a sojourner in this world. But again, the word usage is different. Indeed, the way you are using the word sojourner in Hebrews 11 in regard to Abraham is simply allegorical. Contextually, that cannot be justified in this instance. We must not spiritualize the plain and literal meaning of words unless it is demanded by it's context. In this context, "Abraham lived as a sojourner in the land of promise" can only mean one thing, as I have to this point explained.
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Why? I suggest it is because along with Abraham they had caught a glimpse of "a better country," and a City whose architect and builder is God
Indeed, but that "better country" and "city whose architect and builder is God" is actually a physical city in a physical land, that God Himself will build. This of course, cannot be divorced from the spiritual application, that we as Christians are the city of God. But again, what I propose is a "both...and," not "either...or."
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I'm sorry you would even think it necessary to question that. You must be misunderstanding me at a pretty deep level.
I asked more-so rhetorically. I don't have any reason to doubt you believe in a literal and physical bodily resurrection. I'm simply attempting to drive home a point. If there is to be a bodily resurrection from the dead, then where will people live? If people are to live in a geographical places in their physically resurrected bodies, then why are you opposed to God partitioning off a geographical location to give exclusively to the Jews? And being that a lot of the writings of the Old Testament prophets are obsessed with God's people living forever in the land, along with the spiritual blessings, it's not too great a jump in thought to conclude: Yes, God will make Jerusalem the praise of the earth, and Jesus will reign from that very place as the capitol of the world.
I sincerely don't understand why you wish to downplay the thrust of Scripture in this regard. Especially when it is in these very things, this Divine object lesson and drama that will unfold in redemptive history, that God's glory is chiefly demonstrated. It is in these very things that the spiritual realities find their greatest revelation.
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I fully agree. It's just that there is far more to be revealed in this age than is generally accepted and taught.
I agree, there is a lot more to the "already" that we as Christians need to be made aware of, and that many fail to realize and understand. But it is not in this life only that we have hoped in Christ. There still remains a great deal of things that are "not yet," that will never happen until the age to come. The Holy Spirit who has been given to us though, has given us a taste of what is to come. But it is merely a taste. There is so much more glory to follow, and that we need to look forward to and anticipate.
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...And if we are not seeing eye to eye on things like this, we will continue to forbear one another in love, won't we.
Amen. Please don't mis-understand me as looking to create strife over this issue. Whatever disagreements we may have on this issue, we are still part of the same family of God :-)
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Jimmy H
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| | 2010/1/13 22:52 | Profile | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Just an exhortation on this topic, since I started this thread initially, while everybody is more than welcomed to give their two cents on these issues, if you wish to fruitfully contribute to this ongoing conversation, I would encourage you to only do so if you have listened carefully to at least a dozen or so Art Katz sermons on these topics. It is was my intent that this thread focus on Art Katz's take of things, so as to better aid individuals on here to understand his point of view (whether you agree with it or not).
As previously said, I do happen to agree with Art's take on things, and I would consider myself one of a few spokesmen of this point of view. I am more than happy to elaborate as best I can by the grace of God on these issues. But, being that Art had a very unique expression and manner of speaking, and understood these issues at a depth I've yet to penetrate, I would much rather you listen to him than me. I am more than happy to help you understand what he says if you should have any questions, and help put things in perspective, as he had such a "high" manner of speaking, and sometimes needs to be "translated" by others. Think of me as somebody who wants to help you chew.
Preferably, I would like to answer any questions anybody may have in regard to the list of Scriptures I cited at the start of this thread. Let's be good Bereans :-)
:)
*edited*
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Jimmy H
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| | 2010/1/13 23:06 | Profile |
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