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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : question about tithing and fellowship with the ungodly

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wind_blows
Member



Joined: 2009/1/4
Posts: 353


 Re:


I use to attend a church and the tithe was all ways apart of the teaching. There were times when the entire time was spent in asking for money. The head pastor owned two houses, and several cars. He was living very well while many of the people he was telling that they had to give that 10% every month were coming to the food bank just to fed their children. literally millions of dollars were collected and used to fund building projects. I remember the last time that we attended he was asking for money, he even went on to tell people if they did not have the cash they could sign over cars, use credit cards, or if they had other properties they could sign them over. I left feeling really sad. I just could not understand how someone who said they belonged to Jesus would want to put that kind of bondage on people???

Took me a long time to understand what it means to give, thanks to the Lord I now do so with much love and joy in my heart.

in Him
ebeth

 2010/1/5 18:24Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Quote:
Where is this in the NT applying to believers post pentecost?



Paul writes...

....................................................................................................................
1Cr 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain." [fn] Is it oxen God is concerned about?

1Cr 9:10 Or does He say [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope.
.................................................................................................................

Paul uses the OT Scriptures to teach that the church is responsible for the care of those who care for the flock. He directly applies the OT Scriptures to our time after Pentecost. For he writes, "...For our sakes, no doubt, {this} is written,..."

Paul continues on....

........................................................................................................
1Cr 9:13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat [of the things] of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of [the offerings of] the altar?

1Cr 9:14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.
................................................................................................................

Again Paul clearly points to the OT for our direction to support those who preach the gospel.

Paul also teaches this same precept when speaking of the elders within the church.

................................................................................................................
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," [fn] and, "The laborer [is] worthy of his wages." [fn]
...............................................................................................................

Again Paul points to the OT Scriptures specifically and declares that this precept is valid after Pentecost.

But this is only part of the support that NT believers are called to with regards to the church and those outside the church.

Do any NT Scriptures come to mind that are the same found in Dueteronomy 14 and 15?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/1/5 19:51Profile
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Quote:
I liked most of what you quoted John Piper as saying except for the guilt trips and emotionalism which Jesus never stooped to by the way!


What did you feel Piper said that was a guilt trip or emotionalism?

His few words remained faithful to the numerous scriptures posted above them. Surely he cannot be considered an emotionalist for that? As for the guilt trip I think that repeating the Lord's commands encourage and challenge the believer not guilt them.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.


_________________
Paul

 2010/1/5 23:46Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re: 1 Cor 9 & 1 Tim 5

Jeff asserts in his post,

Quote: "...Paul clearly points to the OT for our direction to support those who preach the gospel...
Paul also teaches this same precept when speaking of the elders within the church."

Indeed Paul clearly is teaching by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor. 9:14 that 'the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.'

No doubt, Apostles(sent ones)of God, preaching,proclaiming,heralding the Gospel of the Kingdom of God are to have our(christians)financial support and care.

Both Timothy and Titus traveled with Paul on many of his missionary journeys. They may not have been chosen Apostles to the same degree as Paul yet they were itinerant preachers. They were evangelists of the same proportion as Paul was on that level.

It is absolute that they were not merely stationary elders in a specific local body. There is a great distinction between their(Timothy and Titus) role in the gifts and calling of God and the elders in a local body of believers. One such distinction being that each able bodied elder in a local congregation was to work with his own hands to provide for his own house. To think otherwise would be foreign not only to the culture but also to God's people as they were familiar with His Word regarding hard work and laboring with their hands to support their own.

I'd equate the modern perversion of ministerial positions and the pastorate with the american welfare system.

Surely we would do well to give to support the poorer in our congregations,the widows and single moms. May God give us wisdom and merciful correction here as He has been abundantly patient with such foolishness which goes on in His House.

Therefore, your reasoning Jeff, when you continue by saying 'Paul also teaches this same precept when speaking of the elders within the church' is faulty, and 'not rightly dividing the Word of Truth'.

Paul's reference in 1 Cor 9:13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat [of the things] of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of [the offerings of] the altar?, is certainly not to be understood as apostate Roman Catholicism has interpreted it, and consequently has ordained a priesthood of the same order, blaspheming the LORD Himself upon every one of their cursed altars where they make their abominable sacrifices.

The most holy things in the tabernacle of the congregation were the responsibility of the Levitical Priesthood. These men were to live upon the tithes of the people as they were not to own anything for themselves as other men. They were a special class of men dedicated to this service by the command of God. (Rome has substituted this with their own model in their apostate sacerdotal system).

That system of shadows and types has long passed.

Num 4:1-4 And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, Take the sum of the sons of Kohath from among the sons of Levi, after their families, by the house of their fathers; From thirty years old and upward, even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation. This shall be the service of the sons of Kohath in the tabernacle of the congregation, about the most holy things.

The word work in verse 3 above is the hebrew word

mel-aw-kaw'

From the same as H4397; properly deputyship, that is, ministry; generally employment (never servile) or work (abstractly or concretely); also property (as the result of labor): - business, + cattle, + industrious, occupation, (+ -pied), + officer, thing (made), use, (manner of) work ([-man], -manship).

The word service in verse 4 above is the hebrew word

ab-o-daw',

From H5647; work of any kind: - act, bondage, + bondservant, effect, labour, ministering (-try), office, service (-ile, -itude), tillage, use, work, X wrought.

H5647

aw-bad'

A primitive root; to work (in any sense); by implication to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc.: - X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, + husbandman, keep, labour (-ing man), bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve (-ing, self), (be, become) servant (-s), do (use) service, till (-er), transgress [from margin], (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper.

The Levites of the Levitical Priesthood were the wage workers of God's ceremonial Law of Israel.

Such Law has been abrogated.


Re: Elders

Exodus 3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

Exodus 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.

Exodus 17:5-6 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel; and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go. Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Exodus 18:12 And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.

Exodus 19:7-8 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Exodus 24:1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.

Exodus 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

Question: Were the 'elders of Israel' wage workers who were paid a salary?

Numbers 11:16,17,24-30 And the LORD said to Moses, Gather to me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them to the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou mayest not bear it thyself alone...

And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them around the tabernacle. And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it to the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that when the spirit rested upon them; they prophesied, and did not cease. But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them, and they were of them that were described, but went not out to the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp. And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord, Moses, forbid them. And Moses said to him, Enviest thou for my sake? I would that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that
the LORD would put his spirit upon them. And Moses withdrew into the camp, he and the elders of Israel.

Luk 10:1,17 After these things, the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city, and place, whither he himself would come... And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us through thy name.

The number seventy is representative of all the elders of God's choosing. None of them are wage workers who are paid a salary.

John 10:12,13 But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

The word hireling in verses 12 and 13 above is the greek word mistho¯tos (Strong's #3411)

mis-tho-tos'

From G3409; a wage worker (good or bad): - hired servant, hireling.

Strong's #3409 misthoo¯

mis-tho'-o

From G3408; to let out for wages, that is, (middle voice) to hire: - hire.

Strong's #3408 misthos

mis-thos'

Apparently a primary word; pay for service (literally or figuratively), good or bad: - hire, reward, wages.

The following is from History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff:

J.B. Lightfoot begins his valuable discussion on the Christian ministry with this broad and liberal statement: "The kingdom of Christ, not being a kingdom of this world, is not limited by the restrictions which fetter other societies, political or religious. It is in the fullest sense free, comprehensive, universal. It displays this character, not only in the acceptance of all comers who seek admission, irrespective of race or caste or sex, but also in the instruction and treatment of those who are already its members. It has no sacred days or seasons, no special sanctuaries, because every time and every place alike are holy. Above all it has no sacerdotal system. It interposes no sacrificial tribe or class between God and man, by whose intervention alone God is reconciled and man forgiven. Each individual member holds personal communion with the Divine Head. To Him immediately he is responsible, and from Him directly he obtains pardon and draws
strength."

"It is certain that the officers of the apostolical or of any subsequent church, were not part of the original institution of the Founder of our religion; that of Bishop, Presbyter, and Deacon; of Metropolitan, Patriarch, and Pope, there is not the shadow of a trace in the four Gospels. It is certain that they arose gradually out of the preexisting institutions either of the Jewish synagogue, or of the Roman empire, or of the Greek municipalities, or under the pressure of local emergencies. It is certain that throughout the first century, and for the first years of the second, that is, through the later chapters of the Acts, the Apostolical Epistles, and the writings of Clement and Hermas. "The episcopate (Bishoprick or Pastorate) was formed,not out of the apostolic order by localization, but out of the presbyterial by elevation; and the title, which originally was common to all, came at length to be appropriated to the chief among them."

It is certain that in no instance were the apostles called ’Bishops’ in any other sense than they were equally called ’Presbyters’ and ’Deacons.’ It is certain that in no instance before the beginning of the third century the title or function of the Pagan or Jewish priesthood is applied to the Christian pastors .... It is as sure that nothing like modern Episcopacy existed before the close of the first century as it is that nothing like modern Presbyterianism existed after the beginning of the second. That which was once the Gordian knot of theologians has at least in this instance been untied, not by the sword of persecution, but by the patient unravelment of scholarships."

The idea and institution of a special priesthood, distinct from the body of the people, with the accompanying notion of sacrifice and altar, passed imperceptibly from Jewish and heathen reminiscences and analogies into the Christian church. The majority of Jewish converts adhered tenaciously to the Mosaic institutions and rites, and a considerable part never fully attained to the height of spiritual freedom proclaimed by Paul, or soon fell away from it. He opposed legalistic and ceremonial tendencies in Galatia and Corinth; and although sacerdotalism does not appear among the errors of his Judaizing opponents, the Levitical priesthood, with its three ranks of high-priest, priest, and Levite, naturally furnished an analogy for the threefold ministry of bishop(pastor),priest(elder),and deacon, and came to be regarded as typical of it. Still less could the Gentile Christians, as a body, at once emancipate themselves from their traditional notions of priesthood, altar,and sacrifice, on which their former religion was based. Whether we regard the change as an apostasy from a higher position attained, or as a reaction of old ideas never fully abandoned, the change is undeniable, and can be traced to the second century. The church could not long occupy the ideal height of the apostolic age, and as the Pentecostal illumination passed away with the death of the apostles, the old reminiscences began to reassert themselves.

In the apostolic church preaching and teaching were not confined to a particular class, but every convert could proclaim the gospel to unbelievers, and every Christian who had the gift could pray and teach and exhort in the congregation. Compare Acts 8:4; 9:27; 13:15; 18:26, 28; Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:10,28; 14:1-6,31. Even in the Jewish Synagogue the liberty of teaching was enjoyed, and the elder could ask any member of repute, even a stranger, to deliver a discourse on the Scripture lesson (Luke 4:17; Acts 17:2). The New Testament knows no spiritual aristocracy or nobility, but calls all believers "saints" though many fell far short of their vocation. Nor does it recognize a special priesthood in distinction from the people, as mediating between God and the laity. It knows only one high-priest, Jesus Christ, and clearly teaches the universal priesthood, as well as universal kingship, of believers.1 Pet. 2:5, 9; 5:3; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6.

I add a passage from Hatch’s; Bampton Lectures on The Organization of the Early Christian Churches (1881), p. 139: "In earlier times there was a grander faith. For the kingdom of God was a kingdom of priests. Not only the ’four and twenty elders’ before the throne, but the innumerable souls of the sanctified upon whom ’the second death had no power,’ were ’kings and priests unto God.’ Only in that high sense was priesthood predicable of Christian men. For the shadow had passed: the reality had come: the one High Priest of Christianity was Christ." It does this in a far deeper and larger sense than the Old; in a sense, too, which even to this day is not yet fully realized. The entire body of Christians are called "clergy" (klh'roi a peculiar people, the heritage of God.

The Apocalypse emphatically teaches the universal priesthood and kingship of believers. The apostles themselves never claim or exercise a special priesthood. The sacrifice which all Christians are exhorted to offer is the sacrifice of their person and property to the Lord, and the spiritual sacrifice of thanksgiving and praise. In one passage a Christian "altar" is spoken of, in distinction from the Jewish altar of literal and daily sacrifices, but this altar is the cross on which Christ offered himself once and forever for the sins of the world.

After the gradual abatement of the extraordinary spiritual elevation of the apostolic age, which anticipated in its way the ideal condition of the church, the distinction of a regular class of teachers from the laity became more fixed and prominent. This appears first in Ignatius, who, in his high episcopalian spirit, considers the clergy the necessary medium of access for the people to God. "Whoever is within the sanctuary (or altar), is pure; but he who is outside of the sanctuary is not pure; that is, he who does anything without bishop and presbytery and deacon, is not pure in conscience." Yet he nowhere represents the ministry as a sacerdotal office. The Didache calls "the prophets" high-priests, but probably in a spiritual sense. Clement of Rome, in writing to the congregation at Corinth, draws a significant and fruitful parallel between the Christian presiding office and the Levitical priesthood, and uses the expression "layman" (lai>ko" a[nqrwpo") as antithetic to high-priest, priests, and Levites. This parallel contains the germ of the whole system of sacerdotalism. But it is at best only an argument by analogy.

Tertullian was the first who expressly and directly asserts sacerdotal claims on behalf of the Christian ministry, and calls it "sacerdotium," although he also strongly affirms the universal priesthood of all believers. Cyprian (d. 258) goes still further, and applies all the privileges, duties, and responsibilities of the Aaronic priesthood to the officers of the Christian church, and constantly calls them sacerdotes and sacerdotium. He may therefore be called the proper father of the sacerdotal conception of the Christian ministry as a mediating agency between God and the people. During the third century it became customary to apply the term "priest" directly and exclusively to the Christian ministers especially the bishops.

In the same manner the whole ministry, and it alone, was called "clergy," with a double reference to its presidency and its peculiar relation to God. It was distinguished by this name from the Christian people or "laity." Thus the term "clergy," which first signified the lot by which office was assigned (Acts 1:17, 25), then the office itself, then the persons holding that office, was transferred from the Christians generally to the ministers exclusively.

Solemn "ordination" or consecration by the laying on of hands was the form of admission into the "ordo ecclesiasticus" or "sacerdotalis." In this order itself there were again three degrees, "ordines majores," as they were called: the diaconate, the presbyterate, and the episcopate-held to be of divine institution. Under these were the "ordines minores," of later date, from sub-deacon to ostiary, which formed the stepping-stone between the clergy proper and the people.

Thus we find, so early as the third century, the foundations of a complete hierarchy; though a hierarchy of only moral power, and holding no sort of outward control over the conscience. The body of the laity consisted of two classes: the faithful, or the baptized and communicating members, and the catechumens, who were preparing for baptism. Those church members who lived together in one place, formed a church in the narrower sense.

With the exaltation of the clergy appeared the tendency to separate them from secular business, and even from social relations-from marriage, for example-and to represent them, even outwardly, as a caste independent of the people, and devoted exclusively to the service of the sanctuary. They drew their support from the church treasury, which was supplied by voluntary contributions and weekly collections on the Lord’s Day. After the third century they were forbidden to engage in any secular business, or even to accept any trusteeship. Celibacy was not yet in this period enforced, but left optional. Tertullian, Gregory of Nyssa, and other distinguished church teachers, lived in wedlock, though theoretically preferring the unmarried state. Of an official clerical costume no certain trace appears before the fourth century; and if it came earlier into use, as may have been the case, after the example of the Jewish church, it must have been confined, during the times of persecution, to the actual exercises of worship.

With the growth of this distinction of clergy and laity, however, the idea of the universal priesthood continued from time to time to assert itself: in Irenaeus, for example, and in an eccentric form in the Montanists, who even allowed women to teach publicly in the church. So Tertullian, with whom clerus and laici were at one time familiar expressions, inquires, as the champion of the Montanistic reaction against the Catholic hierarchy: "Are not we laymen priests also?"138 It is written, he continues: "He hath made us kings and priests (Rev. 1:6). It is the authority of the church alone which has made a distinction between clergy and laity. Where there is no college of ministers, you administer the sacrament, you baptize, you are a priest for yourself alone. And where there are three of you, there is a church, though you be only laymen. For each one lives by his own faith, and there is no respect of persons with God."139 All, therefore, which the clergy considered peculiar to them, he claimed for the laity as the common sacerdotal privilege of all Christians.

The clergy, according to the precedent of the Old Testament, came to be more and more rigidly distinguished, as a peculiar order, from the body of the laity. The ordination, which was solemnized by the laying on of hands and prayer, with the addition at a later period of an anointing with oil and balsam, marked the formal entrance into the special priesthood, as baptism initiated into the universal priesthood; and, like baptism, it bore an indefeasible character (character indelebilis). By degrees the priestly office assumed the additional distinction of celibacy and of external marks, such as tonsure, and sacerdotal vestments worn at first only during official service, then in every-day life. The idea of the universal priesthood of believers retreated in proportion, though it never passed entirely out of sight, but was from time to time asserted even in this age. Augustine, for example, says, that as all are called Christians on account of their
baptism, so all believers are priests, because they are members of the one High Priest.The progress of the hierarchical principle also encroached gradually upon the rights of the people in the election of their pastors. But in this period it did not as yet entirely suppress them. The lower clergy were chosen by the bishops, the bishops by their colleagues in the province and by the clergy.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 surely can not be interpreted to mean that an elder is a wage worker who is paid a salary.

According to this verse an elder is deserving of two-fold(double) honor or esteem of that of a dignitary for their labor. The labor not of a wage worker but of one who is fatigued and wearied by painstaking studiousness in the Word of Truth that he may be equipped to instruct, rightly dividing the same.

A double salary is certainly not what Paul had in mind here as he is instructing Timothy. The very name Timothy is derived from the word honor (tee-may')used in verse 17 and theos which is the word used for God.

Timotheos meaning dear or valuable to God. Such was Timothy to Paul who calls him his own son in the faith(1 Tim 1:2). In no wise would Paul instruct this dear son of his to do otherwise than he himself did. He set himself as the example not charging for the Gospel ministry and said to be an imitator of himself. Follow me as I follow Christ.

Note: 'Preaching and teaching' in verse 17 is an unwarrantable translation. The word translated as preaching is the word logos. If Paul had preaching in mind he'd have used kērussō, euaggelizō, euaggelion, or kērugma, which are all synonomous with the heralding or proclamation of the coming of Messiah, and repentance and faith toward Him for salvation. Preaching is the call of the evangelist as He heralds God's Gospel to the world abroad. While teaching is the common lot of elders and the men in the local congregation(body of believers).

May men cease from twisting the scriptures to fit the mold of their own making. Building ecclesiastical kingdoms to their own names robbing God of the Glory due his Name. Making the body a business and consequently producing a prostitute out of His bride the church.

 2010/1/6 1:31Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

Very thorough and thought provoking, though I tend to feel the same way about a lot of the things you say Savannah, You make it way bigger, and more to be considered. I will have to do some serious study about this. Thanks for posting.


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/1/6 1:52Profile









 Re:

good points giggles and savannah. Actually my brother Robert i am really not sure what his fellowship is with other believers generally since i do not talk to him every week, i know that he tries to go to churches for service and study and he just told me the spirit was not in many of the churches he went to and many seemed to not have a true love for Christ. He we went to the one with me before twice with joy. We usually will have fellowship when we do talk on the phone for a few hours at a time going through scripture. He fellowships at work with some who say their believers, but trust me he is a faithful follower of Christ but also very discerning.

 2010/1/6 1:54









 Re:

well i found these quotes on tithing, thought it was interesting.

MONEY-GIVING-AMOUNT






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The New Testament does not teach a doctrine of tithing (i.e., the mandatory giving of 10 percent of one's income). Nor does Paul define what constitutes giving generously. He does not even provide a target number or general guidelines. The only rule is to give freely and generously as an expression of our continuing trust in God's grace (9:5-8). Paul simply assumes that believers will give all they can to meet as many needs as they can in order to glorify God as much as they can.



Scott Hafemann
Second Corinthians, NIV Application Commentary, Zondervan, 2000, p. 381.




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I do not believe one can settle how much we ought to give. I am afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare. In other words, if our expenditure on comforts, luxuries, amusements, etc., is up to the standard common among those with the same income as our own, we are probably giving away too little. If our charities do not at all pinch or hamper us, I should say they are too small. There ought to be things we should like to do and cannot do because our charitable expenditures exclude them.



C.S. Lewis




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It seems fair to ask, “God, do You really expect less of me – who has your Holy Spirit within and lives in the wealthiest society in human history – than You demanded of the poorest Israelite?”… The tithe is God's historical method to get us on the path of giving. In that sense, it can serve as a gateway to the joy of grace giving. It is unhealthy to view tithing as a place to stop, but it can be a good place to start… Tithing isn't the ceiling of giving; it's the floor. It's not the finish line of giving; it's just the starting blocks… True, some would be sacrificing more by giving 5% of their income than others would be by tithing or even giving 50 or 90%. Certainly the affluent should never “check off the box,” as if giving 10% automatically fulfills their obligation. The 90% belongs to God, too. He doesn't look at just what we give. He also looks at what we keep… When people tell me they can't afford to tithe, I ask them, “If your income was reduced by 10% would you die?” They say, “No.” And I say, “Then you've admitted that you can afford to tithe. It's just that you don't want to”… I have no problem with people who say “we're not under the tithe,” just as long as they're not using that as justification for giving less. But in my mind the current giving statistics among Christians clearly indicate most of us need a jump-start. If you find a gateway to giving that's better than the tithe, wonderful. But if not, why not start where God started His First Covenant children?



Randy Alcorn

Excerpted from The Treasure Principle by Randy Alcorn © 2002 by Eternal Perspective Ministries, p. 61-65.




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God doesn't look at just what we give. He also looks at what we keep.



Randy Alcorn

Excerpted from The Treasure Principle by Randy Alcorn © 2002 by Eternal Perspective Ministries, p. 63.




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Although the tithe is not mentioned (in the New Testament), the giving of weekly offerings is (1 Cor. 16:2). And more importantly, it is generally the case that in the New Testament the obligations of the Old Testament legislation are heightened rather than lessened. That is, the law is interpreted in the fullest measure. So while we are not required to give a specific tenth of our income, it is hard to think of a normal Christian, blessed with the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, doing less. Under reasonable circumstances any true believer in Christ should give more than the tenth, for all we have is the Lord's.



James Montgomery Boice

The Minor Prophets, v. 2, Baker, 1986, p. 602.




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Those who give much without sacrifice are reckoned as having given little.



Erwin Lutzer

Men of Integrity, v. 1, n. 2.




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In our culture, I personally believe this admonition should mean that we give a minimum of 10% of our gross income. If at all possible, this should be a starting point. If it is not possible, it should be our goal – one that we should ask God to help us reach as soon as possible.



Gene Getz

Becoming a Spiritually Mature Leader, Quoted in: Leaders on Leadership, ed. George Barna, 1997, Gospel Light/Regal Books, Ventura, CA 93003, Used by Permission, p. 102.




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The more you prosper, the higher should be the proportion of your giving. There is no percentage goal in giving. Giving 10 percent of your gross income does not necessarily mean you have fulfilled the will of God. That’s not a ceiling of giving to stop at, but a floor to move from.



Donald Whitney

Quoted in: Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life, 1991, p. 151, Used by permission of NavPress – www.nav.press.com, All rights reserved. For more information please see the website: www.BiblicalSpirituality.org.




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When we come to the end of life, the question will be, “How much have you given?” not “How much have you gotten?”



George Sweeting

Men of Integrity, v. 1, n. 2.




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God judges what we give by what we keep.



George Muller




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It is admitted universally that the payment of tithes or the tenths of possessions for sacred purposes did not find a place within the Christian Church during the age covered by the apostles and their immediate successors.



J.R. Willis

Dictionary of the Apostolic Church, ed. J. Hastings, Scribner’s, 1916-1918, “Tithes.”




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It is never said in so many words that we are to give 10% in the NT, though it is worth pointing out that the tithe was not original to Moses and the Mosaic law. It is found early in the life of God’s people. Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek in Gen. 14, if you remember. There is some case there for arguing that the tithe is basic to human life as God ordered it. But, if you are not persuaded of that, remember that if the 10th is not our rule any longer, surely in the NT we are not going to argue that we should give less! We are not going to argue that having seen the Lord on the cross, having witnessed the resurrection, knowing as we now do what price was paid for our redemption, we should give less than they did in the OT? Surely not. Jesus, remember, makes a point of calling attention to the generous gift of a poor woman when she was worshipping at the temple and Paul makes a good deal of the sacrificial financial stewardship required of Christian believers. Now, perhaps we like the tithe after all!



Robert Rayburn

Sermon: Studies in Malachi No. 9, March 16, 2003.




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So the reason the tithe is not commanded by Paul is not that Jesus abolished it. He didn't, He approved it (Lk. 11:42). Nor was the reason that we should no longer give proportionately. We should “as we may prosper” (1 Cor. 16:2). The more you make the more you give. Nor was it that the need of the ministry is less in the New Testament. It's not. Teaching, preaching, caring and missions all take money… The reason that Paul did not use the command to tithe in order to enforce his teaching about giving was that he wanted to emphasize willingness over constraint, and liberality over limitation, and a sense that all our money is God's not just a tenth.



John Piper

Sermon: Malachi 3:7-12, December 6, 1987. Used by Permission. www.DesiringGod.org.




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If we are going to “set aside” the command to tithe…because it feels slavish and legal, and because we want to promote freedom in our giving, then let us beware of jumping out of the frying pan of legal slavery to a command into the fire of carnal slavery to fear and greed. Sin lurks at both doors.



John Piper

Sermon: Malachi 3:7-12, December 6, 1987. Used by Permission. www.DesiringGod.org.




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My take on tithing in America is that it’s a middle-class way of robbing God. Tithing to the church and spending the rest on your family is not a Christian goal. It’s a diversion. The real issue is: How shall we use God’s trust fund – namely, all we have – for His glory? In a world with so much misery, what lifestyle should we call our people to live? What example are we setting?



John Piper




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Give according to your income, lest God make your income according to your giving.



Author Unknown




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Give God what is right, not what is left.



Author Unknown




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Over the years, I became aware of what seemed to be an emerging pattern in the relationship between income and attendance. It appeared that for a significant percentage of churches, one could take the average attendance and by adding three zeros, come up with a very close approximation of the annual income.



Stephen Anderson

Preparing to Build, AMI, 2006, p. 161.




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If our expenditure on comforts, luxuries, amusements, etc., is up to the standard common among those with the same income as our own, we are probably giving away too little. If our charities do not at all pinch or hamper us, I should say they are too small. There ought to be things we should like to do and cannot because our charitable expenditure excludes them.



C.S. Lewis




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It is strongly recommended, in light of the great giving requirements imposed on God’s ancient people Israel, that everyone should at least consider the first 10 percent as a starting point in giving – a minimum.



Kent Hughes

Disciplines of a Godly Man, Crossway Books, 1991, p. 188.




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He, who gives what he would as readily throw away, gives without generosity; for the essence of generosity is in self-sacrifice.



Jeremy Taylor




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The amount of your giving may not be large in comparison to someone else’s gift, but if your heart is generous, and your gift is sacrificial, God is pleased.



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 56. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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I believe in using the giving of a tithe as a guideline for leading God’s people into faithful stewardship. I’m convinced that we should start by giving a minimum of ten percent… This is not a biblical command, but I believe it is a reasonable guideline that will enable us to obey the New Testament principle of proportionate giving.



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 66. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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The 10 percent figure is not a biblical rule, but a minimum guideline for obeying New Testament principles for giving. The key to obedient stewardship in either case is that the amount you give be sacrificial, generous and proportionate to the level at which God has prospered you. If giving 10 percent of your net income doesn’t meet these standards, just increase the percentage until it does.



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 68. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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Partial obedience is disobedience. And for the vast majority of God’s people, anything less than 10 percent is partial obedience.



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 125. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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A Gallup Poll from October 1988 shows that the more money Americans make, the less sacrificial our giving becomes. Those making less than $10,000 per year give an average of 2.8 percent of their income each year to churches, charities, and other nonprofit organizations. Those making $10,000 to $30,000 give an average of 2.5 percent, those making $30,000 to $50,000 give 2.0 percent, those making $50,000 to $75,000 give a total of only 1.5 percent of their income to their church and all other nonprofit groups.



Plain Talk, USA Today, December 23, 1988

Quoted in: Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life, 1991, p. 151, Used by permission of NavPress – www.nav.press.com, All rights reserved. For more information please see the website: www.BiblicalSpirituality.org.




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The sad reality is that:

1. In 2004, only 4 percent of Americans gave 10 percent or more to their church (Barna 2005).

2. Only about 30 to 40 percent of church members even use a percentage guide (Grimm 1992, 44).

3. Only about 50 percent of members even know what percentage of income they give (Grimm 1992, 44).



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 67. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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 2010/1/6 2:12









 Re:

MONEY-GIVING-PERSPECTIVE






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I do not think I exaggerate when I say that some of us put our offering in the plate with a kind of triumphant bounce as much as to say: “There – now God will feel better!” I am obliged to tell you that God does not need anything you have. He does not need a dime of your money. It is your own spiritual welfare at stake in such matters as these. You have the right to keep what you have all to yourself – but it will rust and decay, and ultimately ruin you.



A.W. Tozer
Christ the Eternal Son.




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Our giving is but a reflex of God’s giving.



Sam Storms

Copied from: Pleasures Evermore: The Life-Changing Power of Knowing God by Sam Storms, © 2000, p. 64. Used by permission of NavPress – www.navpress.org. All rights reserved.




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According to 2 Corinthians 8 and 9, truly biblical giving that pleases God is dependent on His grace from start to finish. God’s grace:

1. Enables us to give generously.

2. Causes us to consider giving to be a privilege.

3. Assists us in viewing collections as gracious works.

4. Inspires us with Christ’s gracious example.

5. Helps us give by means of human leadership.

6. Graciously rewards us with an abundance of money to meet all of our personal needs and to give to others.



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 47. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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God doesn’t want you to give out of a sense of pressure or guilt. God wants you to give with eager joy. If there is joy in your heart when offering time comes, you know God is pleased. Do you look forward to writing the offering check? Do you feel like bursting with joy at offering time in your church? Do you get excited when you receive unexpected money that you can give to God’s work? If so, you have entered into the true spirit of giving.



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 58. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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Stingy, selfish people who don’t give to God and their church are often the most unhappy, joyless people. You’ve seen a selfish child gripping a toy in both hands, refusing to share with her little brother, crying and screaming, “Mine, mine, mine!” She’s definitely not a happy child. Many Christian are holding their wallets in both hands and as they hear a message on giving they begin screaming, “Mine, mine, mine!” They are not happy people.



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 71. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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The only people who don’t like sermons on giving generously are people who don’t like to give generously.



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 72. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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The world has a “go-getter” mind-set. The Christian has a “go-giver” mind-set. The world says, “Give to get.” The Christian says, “Give to get to give.” The Christian always stops with giving.



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 87. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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When…people begin to give generously, they will enter into intense spiritual warfare. Satan knows how life transforming it is for believers to give obediently. He also know how God uses the financial resources we give to further His work on Earth. So, using fear and covetousness, our adversary fights ferociously to cripple our giving. That is why, in the context of spiritual warfare and the armor of God, we are commanded to pray for each other (Eph. 6:18).



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 135-136. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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You will always spend your money on what is most important to you… If your giving to the church of Jesus Christ is poor, it is a clear sign that you’re not excited about the things that God takes delight in. And, if you truly do take delight in the growth and success of Christ’s church, put your money where your heart is.



Rod Rogers

Copied from: Pastor Driven Stewardship: 10 Steps to Lead Your Church to Biblical Giving by Rod Rogers, © 2006, p. 205. Used by permission of Rod Rogers – www.DynamicGiving.com. All rights reserved.




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He who gives when he is asked has waited too long.



Author Unknown




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A lot of people are willing to give God the credit, but not too many are willing to give Him the cash.



Author Unknown




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When it comes to giving until it hurts, most people have a very low threshold of pain.



Author Unknown




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Christian giving is to be marked by self-sacrifice and self-forgetfulness, not by self-congratulation.



John Stott
The Message of the Sermon on the Mount, IVP, 1978, p. 131.




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What we gave, we have; what we spent, we had; what we left, we lost.



Tryon Edwards




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www.thegracetabernacle.org

There are many hearing me who now know well that they are not Christians because they do not love to give. To give largely and liberally, not grudging at all, requires a new heart.



Robert Murray McCheyne



 2010/1/6 2:15









 Re:



Many are poor because they rob God.



C.H. Spurgeon




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We should use all our money for the Lord. This is, we should use all our money in a way that God would approve. In that sense, all of our money is to be given to the Lord. Stewardship is to be total, not partial.



Wayne Mack

Strengthening Your Marriage, 1999, P&R, p. 104, Used by Permission.



 2010/1/6 2:17
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Great quotes bible4life. I'll save some of these. I found this account of John Wesley to be both inspiring and fitting:

Take John Wesley for example. He was one of the great evangelists of the 18th Century, born in 1703. In 1731 he began to limit his expenses so that he would have more money to give to the poor. In the first year his income was 30 pounds and he found he could live on 28 and so gave away two. In the second year his income doubled but he held his expenses even, and so he had 32 pounds to give away (a comfortable year's income). In the third year his income jumped to 90 pounds and he gave away 62 pounds. In his long life Wesley's income advanced to as high as 1,400 pounds in a year. But he rarely let his expenses rise above 30 pounds. He said that he seldom had more than 100 pounds in his possession at a time.

This so baffled the English Tax Commissioners that they investigated him in 1776 insisting that for a man of his income he must have silver dishes that he was not paying excise tax on. He wrote them, "I have two silver spoons at London and two at Bristol. This is all the plate I have at present, and I shall not buy any more while so many round me want bread."

When he died in 1791 at the age of 87, the only money mentioned in his will was the coins to be found in his pockets and dresser. Most of the 30,000 pounds he had earned in his life had been given away. He wrote,

I cannot help leaving my books behind me whenever God calls me hence; but in every other respect, my own hands will be my executors.

In other words, I will put a control on my spending myself, and I will go beyond the tithe for the sake of Christ and his kingdom. (Quotes from Mission Frontiers, Sept./Oct. 1994, nos. 9-10, pp. 23-24.)


from desiringgod.org


_________________
Paul

 2010/1/6 2:38Profile





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