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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does Man Have A Sinful Nature?

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You guys are always trying to get off topic. Let's stick to the issue. It seems you are always trying to discredit me, by saying I am Jesse or that I am associated with him, instead of simply debating the issue.

Here is another solid argument:

The fact that Jesus Christ rebuked sin (Rev. 3:19) and we are called to rebuke sin (Lev. 19:17; Lk. 17:3; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim. 4:2; Titus 1:13; 2:15) implies that sin is a choice of a person’s will and not a state of their nature. It implies that their sinfulness is their own fault. It implies that their moral character is within the realm of their own control. If a man is born sinful because of the nature they inherit, their sinfulness is not their fault and it makes no sense to rebuke them for their sinfulness. But if a man is a sinner by choice, if a sinner is the cause and creator of sin, then rebuking him makes total sense.

 2009/12/10 0:30

Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


You guys are always trying to get off topic. Let's stick to the issue. It seems you are always trying to discredit me, by saying I am Jesse or that I am associated with him, instead of simply debating the issue.

So you consider being associated with Jesse Morrell, or *gasp* actually being Jesse Morrell, would be a discredit to you? You should really explain that to us since you have been consistently heralding his doctrines in this forum. I would think that you would be proud to be mistaken for him, and doubly proud if you were really him.

Honesty, or more importantly, character is an key factor as to whether a person's posts or issues are even worth responding to. The question stands - are you Jesse Morrell or are you an associate of his? Will you lie blatantly in black and white in this forum to preserve your subterfuge, or will you come clean and deal with us honestly? Do you or do you not fear God who is watching you?

 2009/12/10 1:08Profile


I appreciate your concern but you can rest assured, I am not doing anything wrong.

Here is another solid argument to consider:

We are taught to train our children in the way they should go (Prov. 22:6). This presupposes that they have the power of choice to determine how they are going to live and through teaching we can influence them to make the right choices. We are also taught about the goodness of physically disciplining our children (Prov. 22:15; 29:15). This implies that bad behavior is the result of their own will, not necessitated by their nature. If behavior was necessitated by nature, instead of chosen by free will, teaching our children would be useless and disciplining them would be cruel.

 2009/12/10 2:16

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

2 Corinthians 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

So it does not matter whether it is by nature of man, which is which is total weakness compared to God. It does not matter that man is wise, for his wisdom is nothing but foolishness to God.

1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

This God must do that He can have children for His house, Born again of Incorruptable Seed, then having the nature of The Father that has rebirthed him.

A complete change in nature, from sin and death, to life and the Father's house, for those called to be His Children.

My nature is death to me. My wisdom destroys myself. It is God and God only that can bring forth Children of His own Seed, with the nature of Christ in them the Hope of Glory.

If my nature is not of God then it is of my old father Satan and that is sin and death, of which I have no control over, it is God who calls His own, and gives them to the Son and none will take them out of His hands.

Without Christ all is sin and death, Adams destiny for all his offspring? Inherited from him and his and eves choices, which none of us could have done any better. All die in Adam, all live in Christ. Simple.

1 Corinthians 1:25-31 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Only in Christ can any believer by wise, righteous, put to the original use that God intended man for: Sanctified, Only God can Redeem any man through the Cross of Christ and His rebirth in the believer, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip


 2009/12/10 3:04Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4537


Hi TheArminian...


TheArminian wrote:
You guys are always trying to get off topic. Let's stick to the issue. It seems you are always trying to discredit me, by saying I am Jesse or that I am associated with him, instead of simply debating the issue.

A simple "yes" or "no" would help.
I appreciate your concern but you can rest assured, I am not doing anything wrong.

I suppose that such an opinion might be open to debate.

If you aren't Jesse, I don't think that you're really doing anything wrong. You're simply discussing a very divisive topic. If you ARE actually Jesse, then I would have a different opinion...simply because you pretended (through deception) to be someone other than the author of the article. Honesty matters.

Again, forgive me if you see this as an accusation. I'm not bitter with you (or Jesse for that matter) or accusing you at all. It would just help me to understand your perspective or approach jUst a little more if you answered my question.




 2009/12/10 3:57Profile

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1565
Scotland, UK


People my friends are in trouble spiritually because when we are born, we are born separated from God in a fallen state and in need of a savior.

When the Scripture says, 'all have sinned’ then that’s what it means For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God Roms 3:23 We are born short of the Glory of God, we are born sinners.

Romans 5:12-21

Notice Paul's point in 12-21. He parallels death that came through Adam with life that came through Christ in order to help us understand the basis of the justification we now enjoy. The logical point of this parallel is that something passively came to us through the actions of our representative head, death through Adam and life through Christ.

To say that death came to us because we committed acts of sin is to miss the whole point of Paul's comparison, for justification certainly did not come to us because we committed acts of righteousness. No,death came passively though Adam as our first head just as the grace of justification comes passively to us through the death of Christ (the clear point of v18, the summary verse of the section).

Paul's point at the end of v12 is not that "death spread to all men because each of them committed acts of sin in their lifetimes." This doesn't fit the context. Instead, Paul's point is that "death spread to all men because all future humans were represented in Adam when he ate the apple."

It's similar to Heb 7:9-10 which says that Levi, who wasn't yet born, paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham's loins. In other words, Abraham, the great-grandfather of a yet-to-be-born man named Levi, represented his entire race of descendents in this act of tithing such that it is accurate to say that the entire bloodline of Abraham tithed to Melchizedek.

The point is we passively inherit the nature or state of sin through Adam in birth JUST AS we passively inherit the nature or state of justification through Christ in faith.

Adam sinned and the result was that he "surely died" (Gen 2:17). Yes, this did include physical death for Adam and Eve and, indeed, for the whole human race. Yet it also included immediate separation from the presence of God in the garden of Eden for Adam and his entire race. When a child is born, he or she does not just inherit eventual physical death from Adam, he or she also inherits spiritual separation from God.

Notice also that immediately after the fall, Adam's race begins
inventing sin. Cain did not learn to murder as murder had never occurred before. No, when anger arose he invented the act of murder. So while sin certainly can be learned it can also flow out of humanity as a creative expression of our natural bent away from God. The point of this is to say that the flow of biblical history after the fall illustrates the reality of inherited depravity in the entire human race.

Jer 17:9-10 the human heart is desperately wicked and sick. The problem is not that we sin; it's that we are naturally bent at our deepest level fully towards sin.

1 Cor 1:18 1 Cor 2:14 man in his natural state finds the gospel foolish and incomprehensible. Notice, it is all of humanity, Jew and Gentile alike, in their "natural" state. They are not blind because of their sin they are blind by nature.

2 Cor 4:3-4 unbelieving mankind is under the blinding power of Satan. Again, this does not seem to be because they have sinned but something that is a natural part of the state they are in.

If we are not born sinners but are born innocent, able to choose between right and wrong, then why has every single human except Christ chosen to sin (Rom 3:10-18,23)? It seems that human nature is bent towards sin, and this is best explained by saying that we were born sinners. We were born spiritually dead and loving to sin.

Few of us would doubt that even the smallest child sins. Toddlers frequently disobey parental instruction and even infants scream out in selfishness. Where does this sin come from? These children aren't yet old enough to even understand the concepts of right and wrong yet already act in sin. In fact, observation suggests that when a child is very young his natural choice will always be sin (selfishness, disobedience) unless the parents create
sufficient negative consequences that train him/her otherwise. A child does not have to be trained to be selfish and disobedient, that comes naturally!

So, we have scriptural and experiential evidence that we are indeed born sinners and that as a result, we sin.

Colin Murray

 2009/12/10 5:03Profile

 Re: Wolf

My question would be, "How in the world is this thread edifying?" Over , over and over again, the Christian Brothers and Sisters throw pearls before a swine. Sounds harsh, but it is true. Try arguing with a Catholic Cardinal or a Mormon Apostle; for this is exactly the same thing.

Here is the Armenian

"It is the conscience that God has given us that gives us a bent against sin and towards obedience.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The "old man" mentioned here is that Adamic nature we inherited from Adam.

"No! no! no!. The old man is the former selfish person that we used to be. "man" does not mean "nature". The old man was the previous person that we were - a self centered, wicked, selfish person. Christians have put off their sins, they are new men. "


"Sin is a free will choice, not a hereditary substance."

"Go and sin no more" implies that all sin is an avoidable choice. "
Armenian.[ J. Morrell ]

Do not be deceived that this is an Armenian/Calvinist debate. IT IS NOT! This is a "PELAGIANISM*/CHRISTIAN debate, and it is the same as trying to debate any other faithless heresy.

* [ Pelagius { an early monk in Rome } was driven by moral concerns and his theology was calculated to provide the most fuel for moral and social improvement. Augustine's emphasis on human helplessness and divine grace would surely paralyze the pursuit of moral improvement, since people could sin with impunity, fatalistically concluding, "I couldn't help it; I'm a sinner."

So Pelagius countered by rejecting original sin. According to Pelagius, Adam was merely a bad example, not the father of our sinful condition-we are sinners because we sin-rather than vice versa.

Consequently, of course, the Second Adam, Jesus Christ, was a good example. Salvation is a matter chiefly of following Christ instead of Adam, rather than being transferred from the condemnation and corruption of Adam's race and placed "in Christ," clothed in his righteousness and made alive by his gracious gift.

What men and women need is moral direction, not a new birth; therefore, Pelagius saw salvation in purely naturalistic terms-the progress of human nature from sinful behavior to holy behavior, by following the example of Christ.]
Michael S. Horton

This trash...[ Morrell's and Pelagius..] counters about every fundamental foundation of the New birth, and thereby the Cross of Jesus, and His atoning Blood. It is damnable heresy, and it is not to be argued, but condemned.

2 Timothy

14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings,

For they will increase to more ungodliness.

17" And their message will spread like cancer."

Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past;

"and they overthrow the faith of some."

This is why we do not argue HERESY and HERETICS, but mark and condemn them. and are commanded to shun even discussion. I appeal to the moderators to consider this.


 2009/12/10 10:20

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