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Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752


IglueAsp wrote:


When I think about those little babies being hurt and killed and they would probably scream if they had air in their lungs... How awful it must be for them! They must be so terrified and alone feeling if they are developed enough to have those emotions. If it was me, if I was being hurt and torn apart or whatever else before I was even born, I would want someone to save me. I would probably wish that someone would come and kill the monster who is destroying me. This makes me wonder if I have been loving my neighbor as myself or not. One of the apostles warned that the love of many people would grow COLD because lawlessness would abound. What if that is what has happened regarding the unborn? What if we have all seared our consciences by neglecting them?

Brother, I agree with you more then you may know. I am not a pacifist by any means. All I was trying to say is that we can NEVER go wrong by treating others with love, where as you may go wrong by treating others without love (ie. force).

As for "killing the monster"... Vengence is not yours, it is the Lords. You will be judged in the same measure that you judge others.

Please don't take this is a pass for abortionists. I believe that there is a special place in hell for them, but they ALSO need the Lord's mercy and grace. Who are any of us to deny the chance to change their ways and recieve grace from the Lord.

Think about it. If you would harm someone and they would pass away, maybe you snuffed out their chance for mercy and grace. Is this in the Lord's will? Did you become their judge, or do we leave that up to the Lord? Also, the actions of using force, as a believer, may make another brother stumble. You may also be sinning in the process of using force. Are any of these outcomes acceptable for you because of your wanting to use force?

Brother, fight abortion, fight it long and hard. Fight it in prayer, protests, fasting, with judges, etc... but in my opinion, leave the force in the Lords hands. :-)


 2009/12/2 3:41Profile

Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752


double post removed


 2009/12/2 3:42Profile

 Re: ginnyrose


You said,

In scanning your posts it appears to me you are making the point that it would indeed be justifiable to do whatever it takes to protect the life of the unborn, even so far as to engage in civil disobedience... and may that include the killing of the abortionist? I seem to get this sense....

No. I can understand why might have jumped to this conclusion having only scanned what I posted though.

You are using a lot of philosophy and rhetoric to make your point, arguing and making it appear that logic would justify to use whatever means to protect the unborn.

That is your interpretation of what I've said, again, probably from reading through quickly.

Let me ask YOU a question: how long have you worked in the pro-life ministry?

Why are you more curious about how long I've worked in a ministry than about anything I've posted? Seeing as it wasn't important to you to do more than skim over some things I've written and then assume I was advocating something that I am not, why is it so important to you to have this question answered?

I would prefer if you read, understand, and answer my questions before asking me any about myself.

 2009/12/2 3:47

 Re: Miccah

Miccah, Thank you for the responses. I plan to respond as soon as I can. It's way past my bedtime.

 2009/12/2 3:57

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3426
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Questions on Defending Others


IglueAsp wrote:
I ask what would you do?

I don't know. I was pacifist until this year.

This thread has peaked my interest in your statement above. Can you talk about what changed you from a pacifist?

And the second thing I wanted to ask is, have you read, [url=]The Kingdom of God Is Within You[/url] by graf Leo Tolstoy? I have started reading it (and by no means have finished it) but he was a pacifist with some compelling arguments. And that is why I started reading it, for his reasons.

God bless,


 2009/12/2 6:15Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7504



I know you are ticked that I did not read all your posts on this subject. But please hear me out. I have been involved in the pro-life ministry for many years and I have heard every argument in the book for and against abortion. Yours sounds like too much rhetoric fueled by logic and philosophy.

Let me tell you this: in all the years I worked as a counselor at a Crises Pregnancy Center, counseling pregnant ladies who wanted an abortion, NEVER, NOT ONCE, NO ONE EVER advocated the use of force or violence against any abortionist. And who were we? Concerned people from all shades of Christianity. I was the only one who adhered to Biblical Non-resistance. The others belonged to a variety of churches including Assembly of God, Charismatic, Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic. Some of the volunteers were military wives.

If you are interested in STOPPING abortion, you go to the churches and start preaching to the people sitting in the pews and tell them that fornication is sin and that the biblical mandate to not allow it to be named once among you is still in the scriptures and is God's will.

You can close AB clinics and people will still keep on sinning. Closing a AB mill will not solve the spiritual problem. Most of the those having abortions are religious women! And some will tell you they know AB is sin but they plan to go have one and then come back home and ask God to forgive them!!!!! I am not making that up! For some reason they never come back to us after they did this and they refuse to answer our phone calls.

Sir, if you want to stop abortion get the folks in the pews to quit their immorality/sinning and then you will see a drop in abortions and you will not have to resort to violence ("do violence to no man") - you will be Biblical and will not have to hire a lawyer to defend you.

Now, I must go and will be gone most of the day.


Sandra Miller

 2009/12/2 10:09Profile

Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057



I have to agree with ginnyrose on this. Teach in the church that fornication is sin, teach them about dying to self and living daily for Christ and you would see a huge difference in people. Stop lying to people, stop telling them that they can live their life on their own terms and God will forgive them in the end.(speaking in general way here not at anyone person) If we would teach Biblical truth and share the love of Christ with others then you would see a decrease in the need for abortion. I was a "professing christian" got pregnant as a teenager and contemplated abortion, sadly there are way to many "professing christians" out there that are doing more then contemplating they are going through with it. If they would only teach the truth about sin, instead of calling it a mistake...

God bless

 2009/12/2 11:11Profile

 Re: Lysa

Hello Lysa,

Thank you for the link to Tolstoy's book. I downloaded the text file to my laptop so I can read it offline.

I do tell people that I am not a pacifist because it is true. However, I am still studying the arguments of pacifists with an open mind. I am unwilling to commit one way or the other without examining the subject as thoroughly as I ought.

In the meantime, to the best of my knowledge, it would be sin for me to refuse to use force to defend (for example) my daughter if someone was attacking or trying to kidnap her. If extreme and harmful force was necessary to protect her then I would see no difference in my obligation.

It would also be sin for me to come to a definite conclusion about this without doing my best to examine the arguments for pacifism. So I've read and heard many such arguments and many arguments against the duty to defend those in need with necessary force. Although I hope I am wrong, I even expect Tolstoy's book to contain nothing that I have not already heard.

Along those lines, I would be very interested to know if you find anything in his book to be a particularly compelling argument against using force to defend others.

I don't have the skills necessary to retrace my entire train of thought as I've begun to open my mind to the possibility of pacifism being wrong and unsupported by scripture. And I'm not sure if that would be the most helpful way to answer your question anyway.

There are quite a few things I have come across that have influenced me to change my mind about pacifism. I'll see if I can find those that would be worth sharing.

 2009/12/4 12:40

Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


*edited* Forgot that I had posted that link already earlier.

 2009/12/4 13:08Profile

 Re: Questions on Defending Others

1)Would you kill a murderer if it was the only way you saw to save the life of your own child?
2) What if the government said you were not allowed to defend your child against the murderer?
3) What if your wife hired the murderer?
4) What if it was your neighbor's child?
5) What if the child wasn't born yet?
6) What if it cost you your own life?

Question 1, would be no. I'd probably do some heavy damage, but not murder.

Question 2, I would defy the government.

Question 3, seems to be a foolish question not worth answering.

Question 4, same as as answers 1, 2

Question 5, This is where the question becomes even more weird. According to the above questions, you have a wife that might have hired the murderer, and then you have a question what if the murderer kills the unborn child. The unborn child is in the wife. So the wife hires the murderer to kill her unborn child.

Question 6, No one can really answer this question until your facing death in the face.

 2009/12/4 15:05

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