| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did? | |
Hi Travis,
I appreciate the time and thought you're giving to this topic. I will do my best to respond to your thoughts, leaving a question to the end.
Quote:
Second, if He retains His divine ability, His temptation and ability to succour us in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 2 now become empty and meaningless. If it is impossible for me to be tempted, how can I understand and help you when you are tempted?
I think this is an excellent point of reference, regarding Christ's humanity.
However, we know that His heart was not evil. Therefore His thoughts (His mind) was not capable of evil imaginings. So now, notwithstanding what the writer in Hebrews said about temptations to His [u]flesh[/u], I submit the continuation of your quote from James 1.
13 [b]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God[/b]: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
What Christ experienced, therefore, was the tug to His flesh, to sin. But, He did not lust to sin, so He could not be enticed. Therefore, He did no sin. That's the big difference between His [u]humanity[/u] and ours.
Quote:
I am not saying that Jesus gave up His rightful claim to divinity. He emptied Himself of the supernatural ability that divinity carried while on earth as a man. [b]Had He done any less He could not have served as my substitute.[/b]
I don't agree with this either. Because the fact that He was fully God is precisely why [u]as a Man[/u] He [b]was[/b]/is able to be our substitute in death.Quote:
Third, the sacrifice of Christ was effectual partly because it was in kind.
I would say that it was fully in kind (not partly), and it was effectual because only God could have lived perfectly as a Man [u]and died as a Man[/u], without sinning en route.
Secondly to that point, in His death on the cross, His battle with Satan (the devil) had to lead to His victorious cry 'It is finished'. It wasn't the sacrifice that was finished when He cried (because obviously, He was still alive at that point - a living sacrifice), but His battle with the Enemy was over, and [b]He died the Victor[/b].
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea. {piercing: or, crossing like a bar} [where 'sea' = people]
Quote:
I don't think the context means that Christ was any less than God either. He did not think it taking what was not His to be equal with God. He was absolutely God incarnate. However, I don't believe His miracles etc. were done as "God in an earth suit", but as man operating in the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and intentionally so.
Allow an example. God is omniscient. The woman with the issue of blood touched the hem of Christ's garment and He was aware that virtue had gone out of Him, but did not know who had touched Him. His question, "Who touched me?" was not rhetorical, but rather an honest human question. Peter experienced a similar thing in His ministry as His shadow passing over people affected healing in their body through their faith and the power of the Holy Spirit resident in him.
I believe your example brings out that as a Man, Christ was limited to the extent of what His Father had or had not revealed to Him (as any other prophet was, and even as He was 'the Prophet'). eg 2 Kings 4:27b '... And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul [is] vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid [it] from me, and hath not told me.'
Jesus had grown up with this (notwithstanding Psa 22:9) He was not embarrassed about it, because He was the only person in Israel after John the Baptist had died, who was hearing from God with understanding, and, being obedient. This limitation you describe, [i]God chose to put upon Himself.[/i]
Actually, I don't think a person could come up to a born again anointed saint, and touch their clothes, and expect to receive healing from them. This is not spoken of in the New Testament as the way for healing to be delivered either to saints or unbelievers. [b]I believe she was healed because He was fully God.[/b] The account of His human consciousness catching up, does not alter that fact, I believe.
So, to my question: how can these two statements be compatible?Quote:
He emptied Himself of the supernatural ability that divinity carried while on earth as a man.
and Quote:
He was absolutely God incarnate.
I know you wrote these in the reverse order, but, both cannot be true, can they?
|
|  2009/11/22 10:03 | | twayneb
Member
Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hey Linn, I appreciate your comments. Let me try to clarify what I am saying. I am not totally sure we are not in agreement on some points, but using different language. There may be some other areas that I am not sure I can agree with you in how I see it.
Quote:
So, to my question: how can these two statements be compatible? Quote: He emptied Himself of the supernatural ability that divinity carried while on earth as a man. and Quote: He was absolutely God incarnate. I know you wrote these in the reverse order, but, both cannot be true, can they?
Sure. I don't see any reason they cannot both be true. Jesus did not give up His divinity. He merely emptied Himself of divine ability and relied on the Holy Spirit just as you and I must.
Quote:
I believe your example brings out that as a Man, Christ was limited to the extent of what His Father had or had not revealed to Him (as any other prophet was, and even as He was 'the Prophet'). eg 2 Kings 4:27b '... And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul [is] vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid [it] from me, and hath not told me.'
I thought about what you said here carefully. I would have to say yes, that is what I am saying, because that is what Jesus said. See John 5:19.
Quote:
What Christ experienced, therefore, was the tug to His flesh, to sin. But, He did not lust to sin, so He could not be enticed. Therefore, He did no sin. That's the big difference between His humanity and ours.
There are three all encompassing areas of temptation that Christ endured that we all endure as well. They are the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. 1 John 2:16. All three were embodied in the wilderness temptation. Lust of the flesh - stones to bread. Lust of the eyes - look at what you can have if you bow to me. Pride of life - look man, you are indestructable; God will take care of you, go ahead and throw yourself down. (prideful presumption).
Jesus was truly tempted by all three. Two embody lust (something of the mind as well as the flesh). But, in His spirit, He was perfect. I think you are absolutely right when you say He did not have the "lust to sin", because this desire to live in sin or to commit sin is not resident in Christ, nor is it resident in the born again spirit of any born again believer. We are, however, susceptible to the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. It is when we learn to live and walk in the spirit that we have victory. Jesus walked in the spirit perfectly and had total victory.
I am not implying for a moment that Christ was not fully God and fully man at the same time. I am saying that, while incarnate, fully God was positional and still who He was in spirit, fully man was practical and necessary for true atonement to take place. He emptied Himself of divine ability and took on Him the form of man.
Quote:
Actually, I don't think a person could come up to a born again anointed saint, and touch their clothes, and expect to receive healing from them. This is not spoken of in the New Testament as the way for healing to be delivered either to saints or unbelievers. I believe she was healed because He was fully God. The account of His human consciousness catching up, does not alter that fact, I believe.
I have read of many instances of this happening, even in recent years. It is not that the person is some kind of "supernatural spiritual superman" with innate abilities, and it is not that the person being healed is putting faith in a man. But, when a man walks very close to God and is in a condition of continually being baptized in the Holy Ghost and fire, that man can carry on Him such a presence of God, such a power of the Holy Spirit that people recognize, "This man has been with Jesus" and reach out putting faith in God that they will be healed. I cannot heal. God working through me can, will, and does. I am simply the instrument through which God works. Hence the doctrine of laying on of hands applies in the work of healing as well as in ordination, etc. And...It happened to John, a man filled with the Holy Spirit.
Travis.
_________________
Travis
|
| | 2009/11/22 11:54 | Profile |
| | Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did? | | Hi Travis, I'm glad we have reached one agreement. :-) Quote:
I thought about what you said here carefully. I would have to say yes, that is what I am saying, because that is what Jesus said. See John 5:19.
Amen.Quote:
I have read of many instances of this happening, even in recent years. It is not that the person is some kind of "supernatural spiritual superman" with innate abilities, and it is not that the person being healed is putting faith in a man. But, when a man walks very close to God and is in a condition of continually being baptized in the Holy Ghost and fire, that man can carry on Him such a presence of God, such a power of the Holy Spirit that people recognize, "This man has been with Jesus" and reach out putting faith in God that they will be healed. I cannot heal. God working through me can, will, and does. I am simply the instrument through which God works. Hence the doctrine of laying on of hands applies in the work of healing as well as in ordination,
On this, I stand corrected. It is delightful to hear of God's resurrection life being demonstrated in this way, today. I think it says a lot for the man or woman whom another recognises that God has entrusted to them His life and power. Amen. But - Quote:
Jesus did not give up His divinity. [b]He merely emptied Himself of divine ability and relied on the Holy Spirit[/b] just as you and I must.
Again I say, that to me, this statement does not make sense. Jesus was divine. His dead body was divine! If we do not receive the death of Christ, we cannot be raised with Him to walk in newness of life by the Holy Spirit. I do not believe He emptied Himself of [u]any[/u] 'divine ability', and I have no idea how you can support that from scripture.
Jesus Christ was the Logos, the Resurrection, the Life, the Light, the Truth, the Way, the Bread of Life - the I AM - [i][b]before He died[/i][/b]. And after. (By that, I mean the example of His death is essential Christianity.)
Jesus Christ was divine [u]because[/u] He was THE WORD made Flesh. His whole physical body was [u]God[/u] made Flesh. In other words, He was very much more than our substitute.
But, He was [u]also[/u] our substitute with regard to the forgiveness of sins, because He was willing to show Himself lowly, obedient to His Father, and even to death on the cross.
That is, He showed Himself to the world, and to His Father, to be a true Man after God's own heart. Therefore, being perfect and spotless, He [i]could[/i] be our human substitute.
How can He get rid of any part of that? Again I ask, (see leading post), what was it that Jesus had to 'empty' out, in order to die (or live) as a Man? I cannot accept your thesis, if I may say so as kindly as possible. And please do consider all His 'I AM' statements again.
Lastly, regarding the doing of miracles, I believe He was filled with the Holy Spirit from His natural birth, and His second public anointing at Jordan, was for His ministry as the Messiah. So, being God made Flesh, the Holy Spirit was always indivisible from His physical being. That's another reason I find any notion of His emptying out any measure of His divinity, incredible.
Regarding the Spirit-filled saint, of course I believe there are those who 'do' miracles by that specific grace of God, but to have the mind of God like Jesus did - to know the mind of God like Jesus did - to [i]be[/i] grace and truth 24.7, is not given to any natural man, even when filled with the Spirit. We can but aspire, believing in the eternal work done on the cross for us, that it will, by the Spirit, bring forth a recognisable measure of His life in our mind, and heart and flesh. Matt 13:33
Remember, too, there were miracles in the Old Testament done by men who were not even born again? The thing about Jesus though, was that He could minister one by one to multitudes of people hour after hour, and although He was tired at the end of it, He wasn't on the run like Elijah after Carmel, nor, legitimately in tears like some of the most spiritual men of [i]our[/i] day, who minister in the power of the Spirit regularly.
|
| | 2009/11/22 13:01 | |
| | Re: | | I think this is a false humility. I have said these very words and I know that deep down inside there is something wrong with that statement. Jesus said, "Greater works shall YOU do, because I go unto the Father". In another place it says, "Jesus I know, Paul I know, but who are you". There is authority in the believer. I think we have been so afraid to step out with this type of thinking because we attribute it to arrogance and self exaltation. But if we are sons of God, shouldn't we have what sons of God have?
Jesus sent the disciples out and told them to cast out devils, heal the sick, etc.. and they came back and said, "Even the devils are subjected unto thy name". And in another place it says, "We can do all things through Christ that strengthens us". And in another place it tell us to "stir up the gift that is within you." And, "Without me you can do nothing". |
| | 2009/11/22 13:40 | | twayneb
Member
Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Quote: I cannot heal I think this is a false humility.
Deepthinker: No humility or false humility implied. It is not in my own inherent power that healing takes place. It is Christ in me and through me that affects healing. I can lay hands on the sick and they recover. Absolutely. I have seen it happen a number of times. I was just making the point that in my own self it cannot happen, but it is the Holy Spirit in me and through me.
I absolutely believe that we can, will, and should do greater things than Christ because we are operating in the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not tell us to pray that God heal the sick. He told us to heal the sick. We do it through His power.
Travis.
_________________
Travis
|
| | 2009/11/22 14:02 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
No humility or false humility implied.
You need to read what I said in the first line of my last post. I said, "I have said these very words", and I wasn't responding to you per say, just responding to all in general.
But thanks for that sweet savour reply.
There is a deeper truth here that I would like to draw out but I don't want to continually thwart this thread. So I'll leave off of it for another time. |
| | 2009/11/22 14:06 | | twayneb
Member
Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Again I say, that to me, this statement does not make sense. Jesus was divine. His dead body was divine! If we do not receive the death of Christ, we cannot be raised with Him to walk in newness of life by the Holy Spirit. I do not believe He emptied Himself of any 'divine ability', and I have no idea how you can support that from scripture.
Linn:
God is inherently supernatural. He is divinely creative. He speaks, and things come into being. This ability is inherent. It is resident with Him because He is God. He relies on no one to give Him that ability. He is omniscient and omnipotent. The same was true with Christ before He came as a man, and the same is true of Him now, after He rose glorified.
Jesus did not rely on His own inherent and resident ability to do the miracles He did. He relied on the power of the Holy Spirit that He received at His baptism by John the Baptist.
He layed aside his own inherent and resident ability to work miracles, etc. and instead humbled Himself as a man and relied on His Father's power through the Holy Spirit to do everything He did.
I think that is the most simple and direct statement of what I am saying that I can come up with.
Does that help?
We may still not see it the same way. That is OK. From your reply I was still not sure you were understanding exactly what I was trying to say.
Travis.
_________________
Travis
|
| | 2009/11/22 14:10 | Profile | twayneb
Member
Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri
| | Re: | | Deepthinker:
Ahhh brother! I think I see what you were saying now. :lol:
You are not thwarting the thread. We are all just sitting around the table discussing the Word of God.
Travis.
_________________
Travis
|
| | 2009/11/22 14:14 | Profile |
| | Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did? | | Hi Travis,
Peace, brother. I do see what you are saying. I just don't think you have scripture on your side.
I do acknowlege the importance of Jesus' baptism and His anointing with the Holy Spirit before being sent into formal ministry by His Father, but I think all that was for the Jews to observe, (and us) in confirmation of their scriptures.
I don't think His baptism in the Spirit added to His [i]powers[/i]. Although, perhaps He had needed special grace from His Father to help preserve His sanity for those years when He did no miracle, and was growing up amongst men of frank unbelief.
We see Christ as humble, because it stands out in stark contrast to all other men. But He was humble not because [u]God[/u] had to strip Himself of pride to become Man, but because [b]mankind[/b] is proud all the time without trying. It is we who have to humble ourselves to become like God.
Yes, we see the tremendous difference between the Son of God in glory, and the Son of God made Flesh, 'humbly' living on the earth of His own free will, but, there is no reason to believe He was not humble in heaven. Else how was He able to [i][b]become[/b][/i] the Suffering Servant of Isaiah's prophecy, the Lamb (slain before the foundation of the world)? John 13:13, 14,15, 16, 17.
I realise I may not 'win' this argument, but I am far more comfortable attributing the full spectrum of qualities to God who made us also to experience those qualities, than entertaining the thought that to become Man, the Son of God lost some divine qualities in translation, or, had to lose some to be able to execute His mission successfully.
In saying this, I do not detract from the Father Son relationship He demonstrated in His prayer-life, which is an example to us, because it was ever in God's heart, to reconcile mankind to Himself. Mal 4:6, (Luke 1:17) Quote:
Jesus did not rely on His own inherent and resident ability to do the miracles He did. He relied on the power of the Holy Spirit that He received at His baptism by John the Baptist.
He layed aside his own inherent and resident ability to work miracles, etc. and instead humbled Himself as a man and relied on His Father's power through the Holy Spirit to do everything He did.
I think that is the most simple and direct statement of what I am saying
Again, while I can follow your logic, I believe the explanation for His claim we would do greater things, is that it is indeed a greater miracle for Fallen men to receive the Holy Spirit, be raised to newness of life and walk in it, being holy as their Father in heaven is holy. Matt 5:38, 1 Pet 1:15
Thank you for taking time to share with me. |
| | 2009/11/22 16:38 | | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | This Topic is by no means saying that Jesus was NOT God while on Earth, but only concentrating on His humanity.
Jesus was God while here on Earth, however, He did not use any of His Godness (if you will) to overcome the world.
God defeated Sin, Death and Satan in Satan's own turf (this world), stripping Himself of His divine authority and taking on the form of a servant, a mere mortal man. God exposed Himself to all the elements, poverty, hunger and sufferings of this world.
Jesus beat Satan with both hands tied behind His back.
Jesus did not have any advantage over sin any more than we have right now.
Jesus did not use any of His "God powers" to overcome sin and the world; He only made use of His volition as all mankind has to not sin; He did not remain sinless by any slightest difference than any other man, He was the EXACT same as we are to day.
[b]Hebrews 2:16[/b] [color=660000]For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the nature of Abraham.
[b]:17[/b] Therefore in all things he had to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
[b]:18[/b] For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help them that are tempted.[/color]
What is the nature of Abraham?
Human, made of weak, dying flesh.
In [b]ALL[/b] things he had to be made like us as we are now.
If Jesus had any advantage over sin and the world any more than we have now, Jesus would not have been a perfect priest.
[b]Hebrews 4:15[/b] [color=660000]For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.[/color]
The "[color=660000]yet without sin[/color]" does not mean that He was "born with out sin", but that He always chose not to sin as we should.
Jesus remained sinless not because He is God, but by loving His Father; which is exactly how we may not sin.
Jesus is our Standard.
Standards must be reachable/attainable in order for the standard to be fair & just.
IF remained sinless precisely because he was/is God, then that would be an unjust standard for us to be held to, because we are not god to not sin.
Jesus is our perfect example. Examples are to be imitated.
IF remained sinless precisely because he was/is God, then we can not imitate Him; for we aren't God.
Since we are not god to not sin, how are we supposed to imitate Him? |
| | 2009/11/22 17:51 | Profile |
|
