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 Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?



Wesley wrote [i]emptied Himself of all but love ... [/i]


Is there any scriptural basis for the notion that Christ emptied Himself?

(I can't find it.)

But if there is, what was wrong with what was in Him, that He had to get rid of it before He could die for us?


Because, if 'He emptied Himself' is true, there must have been a reason for it. Are Wesley's words merely poetic licence, or do they reflect a theological truth (or error)? (Gasp!)

 2009/11/20 11:35
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?

I believe Charles Wesley here was alluding to Christ leaving the abode of glory and majesty He shared with His Father before the world began, only to come to wicked earth and take on the lowly form of man with all his limitations (i.e. hunger, thirst, pain, fatique). He took off His robes of unapproachable, eternal light and dressed himself in stinky earthen fabrics and sandals of an ancient Palestinian custom and condescended to take the form of a sorrowful servant - obedient even unto the death of a cross. What He retained, however, throughout all this emptying was one thing: His Heavenly, divine love. I believe this was the one thing He permitted Himself to take from the realms of glory to the fallen sons and daughters of Adam.

Never had the world seen true agape love manifest, until that which was shown through Jesus Christ, the Son of God.


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Paul Frederick West

 2009/11/20 11:45Profile









 Re:

Philippians 2:7 (NASV)

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 2009/11/20 11:58
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?

My understanding would be that he is referring to the scripture in Philippians 2: 5-7

Christ did not consider it 'robbery' to be equal with God. The word 'robbery' in the original denotes 'something to be held onto'. But He made himself of no reputation (lit: 'emptied himself of His privilages'), taking the form of a bond servant and coming in the likeness of men.

So although Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, He willingly emptied or let go of His deity in all practical ways of living and lived as a man, submitted to God the Father.

This is a great truth. Christ had to come as the last Adam (second man) in order to redeem man from the curse. Jesus walk as the perfect man dependent upon the holy Spirit and the word of His Father every day.

My wife and I were discussing this just last night as we were reading Galatians 6 about walking in the Spirit. I believe that Jesus was the only one who walked perfectly and continuously in the Spirit while he was on earth. We are called as beleivers to also walk in the Spirit and Jesus is our example of how we can do this. He spent time in prayer alone with His Father God. He only said and did what His Father told Him. He did not yeild to the pressure to be diplomatic or politically correct etc, etc... there is so much more I'm sure.


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Dave

 2009/11/20 12:03Profile









 Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?


Thank you for your replies.

I think I'm concerned by the implication that Christ was less than wholly God, when He died.

I understand about Him not grasping after His equality with His Father, but to my simple mind, that makes Him more, not less, and more fully God, than 'empty' of some attribute.


Brother PaulWest,

You beautifully expressed the effect of God becoming Man, but surely He was, internally, just as full of glory as in heaven? Yes, His outward circumstances had changed, but inside He remained at perfect rest in who He is, and did not shed any part of who He is, to 'be' a Man.



I'm interested in everyone's take on this.


From Wikipedia:

'In Christian theology, Kenosis is the concept of the 'self-emptying' of one's own will and becoming entirely receptive to God and his perfect will. It is used both as an explanation of the Incarnation, and an indication of the nature of God's activity and condescension.'

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosis]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosis[/url]


Yet, we are clear that Christ's desire (will) was one with His Father's, and this is clear from John 10:17, 18; John 17:24, Matt 8:3, Luke 22:15, and He [i][b]needed[/i][/b] to desire, or will, just as much as His Father did, for Him to be able to carry through His mission.

 2009/11/20 13:24
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I think I'm concerned by the implication that Christ was less than wholly God, when He died.


The [i]undeifying[/i] of Christ I don't think was ever an issue with Charles Wesley...if you take the rest of his hymns into consideration. "Emptying" himself in this particular context could simply mean leaving the eternal Spiritual abode of His Father (whilst still being fully God), and descending to this earth in the form of man with all of his physiological frailties and temptations.

Technically, we could say he was Holy Spirit "empty" until after His baptism in the Jordan, when the Holy Spirit manifested and descended upon Him like a Dove. Note, here I am using "empty" in a poetic sense; also, when His Father forsook Him literally on the cross it could be said He was [i]empty of the Father[/i] at this juncture in time - empty of all but love - just as heaven was "emptied" of Him when he left the Hosts above to come to earth. In this respect, there are lots of ways to interpret poetically what Wesley is conveying in this particular hymn.

But as to Christ actually "emptying" Himself of His deity - I'm sure is not what is being implied contextually nor theologically, although I'll bet a Jehovah's Witness or some other Arianist could easily twist it to mean such! :)


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Paul Frederick West

 2009/11/20 13:48Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?

Php 2:5-11
(5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
(6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
(8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
(9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
(10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I like the way George Ricker Berry translates the word harpagmos. He uses the word rapine. This agrees more closely with Strongs definition as well. Robbery, Rape, Rapine, are terms that are indicative of taking something that does not rightfully belong to you. Jesus did not esteem it taking something that was not already his to be equal with God, but emptied Himself of it. He knew full well that He was equal with God. He often stated the fact unabashedly as a simple fact. But He emptied Himself of all divine ability and became as we are.

Jesus own commentary on this...

John 5:19: Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 14:10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus operated on earth as a man filled with the Holy Spirit and all that He did He did by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by the inherent power as God that He had rightful claim to. He had emptied Himself of that.

Acts 10:37-38 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; (38) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

That is why Jesus could make this statement recorded by John:

John 14:12-14 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Jesus became man for the suffering of death. He poured out the same Holy Spirit of God on us.

Travis


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Travis

 2009/11/21 17:59Profile









 Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?

Hi Travis,

Quote:
Jesus operated on earth as a man filled with the Holy Spirit and all that He did He did by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by the inherent power as God that He had rightful claim to. He had emptied Himself of that.

I don't agree with this at all, because His whole physical body [u]was God the Word, Incarnate[/u].

And Phil 2:6 does state He was 'in the form of God'.

Quote:
I like the way George Ricker Berry translates the word harpagmos. He uses the word rapine. This agrees more closely with Strongs definition as well. Robbery, Rape, Rapine, are terms that are indicative of taking something that does not rightfully belong to you. Jesus did not esteem it taking something that was not already his to be equal with God, [b]but emptied Himself of it[/b].

I'm grateful for what you brought of Berry's translation. I think it makes much more sense of the context.

I do know Paul uses the word 'emptied', but I don't think the context means that [i]Christ[/i] was any less God, or that His humility was a merely human characteristic. I think that is the whole of Paul's point: that Christ, being God, [i]was genuinely humble[/i], and we should understand therefore we are to BE humble, like Him. (See Phil 2:1, 2, 3, 4, 5.)

Paul is trying to get us to see that humility is [u]God-like[/u], and this is what we should aspire to.

v 6 is telling us that Christ did not try to set Himself [i]above[/i] God. That in being merely 'equal', He did not feel robbed of his status.

Whereas the people to whom Paul was addressing his comments, were competitive and boastful. I think Paul's comment about 'empying Himself' was a device to encourage the warring factions at Phillippi, to empty [i]them[/i]selves of pride and a desire for pre-eminence.

Lastly, Phil 2:8, 9 are very reminiscent of Jesus' instrurction in Luke 14:10.


 2009/11/21 20:01









 Re:

Quote:
I think Paul's comment about 'emptying Himself' was a device to encourage the warring factions at Phillippi

If this be true, then to what purpose is this verse for us, if it meant only for them?
Quote:
I don't agree with this at all, because His whole physical body was God the Word, Incarnate.

I have to disagree with this statement. A body was prepared for Him, having NOT the seed of man whatsoever. It was a body that was able to die and if He had of staid more than 3 days in the ground it would have seen corruption. In the "form of God" must mean that it was a spotless body, without blemish, holy.

 2009/11/21 20:07
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Alive-to-God wrote:

Quote:
I do know Paul uses the word 'emptied', but I don't think the context means that Christ was any less God, or that His humility was a merely human characteristic. I think that is the whole of Paul's point: that Christ, being God, was genuinely humble, and we should understand therefore we are to BE humble, like Him. (See Phil 2:1, 2, 3, 4, 5.)



Hey Linn: I don't think the context means that Christ was any less than God either. He did not think it taking what was not His to be equal with God. He was absolutely God incarnate. However, I don't believe His miracles etc. were done as "God in an earth suit", but as man operating in the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and intentionally so.

Allow an example. God is omniscient. The woman with the issue of blood touched the hem of Christ's garment and He was aware that virtue had gone out of Him, but did not know who had touched Him. His question, "Who touched me?" was not rhetorical, but rather an honest human question. Peter experienced a similar thing in His ministry as His shadow passing over people affected healing in their body through their faith and the power of the Holy Spirit resident in him.

I am not saying that Jesus gave up His rightful claim to divinity. He emptied Himself of the supernatural ability that divinity carried while on earth as a man. Had He done any less He could not have served as my substitute.

For example, Jesus was in all ways tempted like as to me, yet without sin. However we read in scripture also that God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man. First of all this is an obvious contradiction unless we understand the extent to which Christ emptied Himself. Second, if He retains His divine ability, His temptation and ability to succour us in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 2 now become empty and meaningless. If it is impossible for me to be tempted, how can I understand and help you when you are tempted? Third, the sacrifice of Christ was effectual partly because it was in kind. Hebrews 2:14-16.

That humility is a God quality is true, but I don't think that is what Christ emptying Himself was all about.

Anyway, I appreciate the kind response brother. Berry's interlinear Bible was my first Bible of that kind, and I really like it. Not always so easy to sit down and read, but a wonderful study tool.

Travis


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Travis

 2009/11/22 8:56Profile





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