SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : General Topics : Effective Praying

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Effective Praying

I didn't want to "taint" the other post with my personal speculations, so I am starting this one.

I am reading E.M. Bounds right now and Ravenhill has been one of my greatest influences. However, I have often wondered something about these men and others like them.

What was the effect of their praying and intercession? I know that we may not be able to tell here on earth, but it just makes me wonder. Why do we listen to men about prayer if there's little to no proof that there prayer was effective? I mean, sure, we can speculate about how their prayer truly was effective, but from what I can tell it wasn't apparent.

Now I have my own theory about Ravenhill that has let me believe that his prayer was extremely effective, but did revival really come to where he was, how he was praying for it?

How about Bounds? Yeah, he has a lot of great things to say about prayer, but what was the fruit of his prayers? Once again, one can formulate theories or just give the classic "just because we can't really tell right now doesn't mean..." but what gives these men a more legitmate platform to talk about these things? And why do we listen to and believe them?

Just because they read a lot of books and talked a lot about it and seemed to be extreme? But did it work?

This has been troubling me for some time now so I just wanted to get it out there. I think other perspectives would be really helpful.

 2003/8/23 11:57Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re: Effective Praying

Dear Todd and Friends,
I think I recognise the same dissatisfied urgency in your words, Todd, as I find in my own heart.
The men of old had something to say about the fellowship with the Lord because of their personal experience of the ministry of the interior.
But, I find, or better we all find, this kind of distress, this kind of displeasure in relation to the results on the horizontal level. Ravenhill expresses this dissatisfaction in repeated calls for men of stature, who dare to give themselves to the Altar: “We need to get humble enough, low enough, desperate enough, hungry enough, concerned enough , passionate enough broken enough, passionate enough, clean, enough and prayerful enough, then God will send us a revival….” – Sodom had no Bible.
Words like these produce a holy anxiety – I must lay hold of the ways and means to be able to be heard in Heaven for the sake of the glory of God. Then this may cause certain results on Earth.
Todd, you do well in bringing forth this provocative question.
We need to walk an inner path with God which produces results in the seen, a presence of Christ to be ministered into our daily surroundings.
Lars


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2003/8/23 13:03Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Effective Praying

Reminds me of what Jim Cymbala said:
"I despaired at the thought that my life might slip by without seeing God show himself mightly on our behalf. Carol and I didn't want merely to mark time. I longed and cried out for God to change everything- me, the church, our passion for people, our praying.
....always preaching about the
power of the Word and the Spirit, but never seeing it."
From "Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire"

It appears his prayers were answered, why not the others?

Could it be that Cymbala was able to rally his church around the central focus of being a praying church? Power in numbers? I am speculating here of course, when Peter was locked up there was quite a few together praying but I wouldn't want to make that some type of formula.

I do catch your drift though, and follow along the line of thinking in 'yet future'...
Is it not possible that God has used these men to prompt just a question as this? To spur us on?

I also tend to be a 'bottom line' thinker.
Since I believe that God never waste's anything, be it suffering, financial setback...[i][b]ALL[/b][/i] things work together for good ....
So, 'yet future' may not be a cop out after all.

Surely more questions than answers..


_________________
Mike Balog

 2003/8/23 13:40Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re:

Do we dare to speak about effective prayer as understanding, or at least being in line with God’s sovereign choice of time or timing, specific vessel and circumstances.

One man is seemingly enough at times.
Sometimes unity among believers is an imperative.
The big gatherings are seldom a solution. They are rather to be perceived as an obstacle, the way we conduct them.
A prayer team carrying on for 100 years created a missions effort that has few equals.
It looks like it all boils down to how God want to use our intercession. We need to look for a very special dynamics, an essence which makes it fit together with heavenly incense – Rev 8:3

One has not prayed until it is all prayed through.
You are not finished in prayer until you have prayed through.
Do we have patience enough to wait before the Lord on his terms.


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2003/8/23 14:11Profile
PJ
Member



Joined: 2003/7/29
Posts: 76


 Re: Effective Praying

Todd,

I had actually put my Ravenhill books aside for a while during a spiritually cool time in my life do to the same thought. I begin to wonder what was point of all the time that this man spent in prayer when for the most part America has remained unchanged. I began to trade in Ravenhills prayer approach for the man made approach at being effective for God. To me it seamed that it's the great motivators and leaders who were truly making a difference. Men who were building great churches because of there great leadership and ability to motivate. I read books on leadership, time management, etc. During this time in my life, prayer was something I did, not someting I lived (Oh how cold I really was!). For a while Ravenhill was old news in my life. It has only been during these past few months that my love for him has once again returned. With the return of this love for his writings comes the questing again - What did all his prayer get him? Now I have an answer.
His prayer may not have changed the world, but I am sure that it has changed my life. I have never read anyone's writing that effect me as Ravenhill. His books burn me in the heart. As I read his books I can't hardly get through a chapter without falling on my face before God. Where does this power come from?..... He was a man of prayer.
It is obvious that he has effected the lives of many of us on this sight, I believe that his prayers are still changing the world through us. Where I now find my leadership and self help books dull and lifeless, Ravenhill's writings remain on fire. He did not pray in vain. If my life and prayers are spent to inspire just on person to hunger after God as Ravenhil has inspired me, it will have been spent well.

PJ

 2003/8/23 14:15Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

your quote "So, 'yet future' may not be a cop out after all."

John 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2003/8/23 14:24Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Thanks everyone. I believe I agree with all of you.

And I have had similar experiences with Ravenhill. Both his writings and his sermons stir me up.

I guess this is more of a general question. WHy do we listen to people who talk about revival and how to get it but don't experience it over those that talk about it and experience it? I don't care how much they stir me, this just seems strange. They may be right about a lot of things, but wrong in some areas.

THis is one reason why I am so attracted to FInney and his works. He talked it and walked it. I am in no way belittleing the works and accomplishments (be they obvious or not) of these other men, but it just makes sense to me to read about revival from men who lived it and brought it with them. It makes sense to read about how to pray from men who had such obvious success with it. It doesn't mean others are wrong, but since we only have so much time for reading, I would think it wise to start and focus on those who were proven effective.

For me, Ravenhill might be in this category, but not for necessarily obvious reasons, some of which others have already mentioned. He is more mysterious to me which is great.

Yes, we may never know how effective any man truly has been in prayer, and therefore cannot judge.

I guess it's just a simple thing of logic I am dealing with here. Who shall we go to for advice? God must lead us, but some sources seem to have been stamped "valid" by the obvious effects they had. It doesn't mean everything they wrote is right, but it's a good/better bet than someone who didn't experience what they taught.

As my friend told me yesterday:
"Don't take stock in men. Only take stock in God."

 2003/8/23 14:50Profile
PJ
Member



Joined: 2003/7/29
Posts: 76


 Re:

just another thought!

Ravenhill and Finney lived in two totally different times. I personally believe that if Finney lived in our time that he would not experience the same effectiveness in ministry as he did during his time. There was sin conscienceness on the earth during his time, covicition came easier (my beliefe!). In our day there is really no such thing as sin, making any real move of God that much more difficult. I believe that the man of God for this hour will have to be more than Finney or any other man of the past.

Just my thoughts,
PJ

 2003/8/23 16:50Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Is it not God who moves according to His own good pleasure? In His own timing?
Moses never saw the promised land.
Is it men who produce the desired results or is it results produced by God through the use of man?

Here is another way to look at it. What if God were to jump into the middle of this conversation and say "Brethren, I am proud of the way you have sought after Me, I have heard your prayers. I am going to send a revival that the world has yet to ever see, nor will ever be seen again. Now, some of you may be around to see it and others of you will not because I will be taking you home to be with me before it comes. If you do not continue in prayer, if you do not continue to seek Me with all your heart and pray for this, if you do not proclaim it in the church, I will not send it and the world will suffer great loss because you did not adhere to this word I have sent you."

This would put us in quite a dilema. In fact it is the dilema we are in right now. If He were to promise it unconditionaly, we would in our naturalness, our ever fluctuating moods eventualy just fall into the easy habit of 'why bother He is going to do it anyway'. If it was attached with conditions to pray and fast and seek and we knew that we may well miss it, again we would fall into the same trap, 'why bother, I may not live to see it anyway'.
So the last option is the only reasonable one. Pray, seek Him with all your heart, mind and spirit, it may be incumbant on us to secure it for our children or even our childrens children.
Besides, there is also the possibilty that we may just behold it with our own eyes!

Shall we give up, after those who travailed in prayer before us, making us "the generation that grew weary"?
Or will we take the baton and run?

Great are the mysterys of God.
I pray this makes sense.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2003/8/23 18:35Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Yeah brother!
Let's take up the baton!
Let's go for it!

 2003/8/24 13:21Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy