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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : exegesis on soul--body--spirit.

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brodav9
Member



Joined: 2008/2/22
Posts: 173
Sylacauga Alabama

 exegesis on soul--body--spirit.

This doctrine is a difficult one. That is why it can be twisted to bring perverted doctrine. example-- if it is said that the soul is the inner person, confused with spirit, then a heresy could say Jesus died spiritually. That is because the scripture which says he will not leave my soul in hell would be mistranslated into the inner man not left there but the spirit die there. Acts 2:27 getting away from the heresy let's get to the simple exegesis. it is not difficult if we know the scriptures. a. the body--- that is easy to understand, you can touch yours right now if you like. spirit-- ruach Hebrew, Zech. 12:1 answers that question. the spirit of man is within him. 1Th.5:23 shows us there is a distinct 3-fold make up of our being. soul-- 1st-- a animal is called a nephesh Hebrew-- a living soul Gen.1:24 man in Gen.2:7 is also a nephesh. The difference between man and animals is that God breathed ruach spirit into man. it is the inner life principle. so we see that nephesh-soul is a living being. In Gen. 46:18 and Gen. 36:6 persons and souls is both nephesh. In Heb.7:9-10 Levi was a person in the loins of his father Abraham. That is why he did as a person would do if he wasn't in the loins. Gen. 46:18 I don't think any of us would say 16 spirits came from Leah. to sum it up-- the soul is the person and the person is comprised of a body containing their spirit. or to say it - a soul is the being who is made up of body and spirit. they are a living soul, person. This is why abortionists say he is not a person till he breathes. They say Adam not a soul till he breathed by breathe of God. but they forget that Adam was created by God and this is not the normal birth process. a child is full of life before born or it wouldn't be moving in the mother's womb before birth when slapped it breathes. It sure can reach out and grab the Drs. hand at only 5-6 monthes. Because in Adam the child is a soul who carries the original breath of spirit into him before birth.


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David

 2009/11/3 10:06Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: exegesis on soul--body--spirit.

We know that they are distinguishable from this verse, [b]1Thes 5:23[/b] [color=660000]the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/color]

I think that we need to distinguish the three parts separately by seeing what happens at the time of death:
Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.

Physical death, spirit for body - [b]Eccl 12:7[/b] [color=660000]then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.[/color]
[b]James 2:26[/b] [color=660000]as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.[/color]

Spiritual death, spirit from God - [b]Isa 59:2[/b] [color=660000]But your iniquities have separated you between and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.[/color]

However the body with out the soul is not scriptural;
a soul dies by being in hell with the body:
[b]Matthew 10:28[/b] [color=660000]fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/color]
[b]James 5:20[/b] [color=660000]Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a [b]soul from death[/b], and shall hide a multitude of sins.[/color]
[b]Rev 16:3[/b] [color=660000]And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and [b]every living soul died[/b] in the sea.[/color]

So now, what is the soul compared to the spirit?

I think the soul is who we are naturally; Our personality, intellect, emotions and feelings...etc...

The spirit is the connection of how we are able to commune with God; this “commune” is spiritual life (John 17:3)
The spirit is also what keeps the soul and body alive.
However, when one is spiritually dead does not mean that their spirit is actually dead, but that they are not in communion with God.


I've been wondering about this next thing for about a couple of weeks now:

Quote:
brodav9 wrote:
...a heresy could say Jesus died spiritually.

If Jesus didn't die spiritually (loss of communion with the Father), then what was His anguish in the Garden of Gethsemane?

 2009/11/3 10:44Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: exegesis on soul--body--spirit.

Hi Bro Dave,

This is interesting and has made me consider what I believe. A lot of what you say makes sense in that the Soul is most often applied to meaning 'the person'. Do you think that you would say that where it says 'soul' when speaking in the first person, we would now say 'self'? For example Luke 12:19 - I will say to MYSELF, SELF...

However there are some problems your view raises with scriptures that talk about the soul being within such as Psalm 42:4-5. Also if the Soul represents and includes both spirit and body how can Hebrews 4:12 say they can be divided, in other words they seem to be two seperate parts? Also the scripture you refered to 1 Th. 5:23 says the are three parts. Surely if the Soul meant both body and spirit, the Paul would have said your 'body and spirit' or just 'your soul' and not said body, soul and spirit.

These are just my thoughts. I'm just interested in what you and others think and not trying to push any particular view.


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Dave

 2009/11/3 10:50Profile
brodav9
Member



Joined: 2008/2/22
Posts: 173
Sylacauga Alabama

 Re: answers

Hi, Eccl. 12:7-- here we see that dust (our body) returns to the earth. It didn't say hell. it would appear that the spirit goes back to God would mean heaven because God is in heaven. but it can be understood that the spirit is now just in God's possession. If you have a greek interlinear which is greek on top and english under it, the word hell is not there. Matt.10:28 has hell. there is no hell manifested-- meaning it exists but not come into play . Rev.20:14 see your greek it's hades not hell. if you read Lk. 16:1-on you will see hades is a place of departed spirits-- not souls. you can be a soul though you have not the body. departed spirits are not destroyable that's why they must remain somewhere forever. extra-- if Adam ate of the tree of life he would have remained in sin forever. to eat that tree would mean no death at all. But would also be seperated from God forever. with all mankind. tree is now in heaven waiting for saints. the torment of being in darkness, living with the devil, and screams of misery. as well as waiting for judgement day at the great white throne, nothing to do nothing for comfort. extreme warmth etc. these are the things people laugh at now but we who have the witness of the Spirit of God know the reality of these things. what a sober wake up call, even to me who needs to make sure my calling and election is sure. 2Pte. 1:10 what does he mean fall?? I think we over exagerate this seperation from God thing. Jesus knows that he said to the thief on the other cross this day you will be with me in paradise. He knows (faith always does) especially if you know your God. the devil tried to get Jesus to question that by saying "if you be the son of God" Matt.4: Jesus knew he was the son of God and would be in paradise that day.not a long time. it says in 2 Cor. 5:19 God was in Christ. That reveals to us he couldn't die spritually, of course you know you can't divide God up, he is triune. He commited his spirit into God's hands before dying proves he trusted God or wouldn't ask him to do something like that-- that also is faith..James 5:20 Heb. is nephesh-- soul a person a living being. the mind a part of the body desides to sin it may come form the spirit but the body performs it-- this also would be spirit inner man sends idea to the mind and body performs it. it is that person-- soul as a complete person who is therefore a sinner worthy of death. Eph.2:13-16 the wall of sin fig. of wall, it was his body not his spirit which slay the enmity--enemy of sin, that is easy because it is the blood of his body that made atonement. the soul includes the body and the spirit which are why you have affections intellect emotions. the body just houses these.


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David

 2009/11/4 12:41Profile
brodav9
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Joined: 2008/2/22
Posts: 173
Sylacauga Alabama

 Re: answers

God bless you for your open mindedness. that is right the self -person would be the soul. remember the soul includes your whole being, which includes spirit and body, soul is just you. so if we say spirit and soul in a union we are saying my soul --person which is having in my soul a spirit. we have to remember the other lanquages are not English. they are of a diiferent culture. That helps us see why they say a thing we would say but they say it in a different way. Your spirit and soul are a union they are not independent. example-- it is a faucett to get water. but in the tub. the faucett and the tub are same in the context of the object. never seperated though. our spirit is our soul, --faucett and tub, yet they are distinct as to their position. hope I'm clear. thanks.


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David

 2009/11/4 13:58Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
brodav9 wrote:

extra-- if Adam ate of the tree of life he would have remained in sin forever.

No, because He could have repented as we see that he did when God made coats of skin for them. Ada taught his children of sacrifice (Cain & Able) as proof of His repentance.
Therefore, since Adam repented, he would no longer be "in sin".

Moreover, Adam was cast out of the Garden for knowing good & evil, not because he was "in sin"
[b]Gen 3:22[/b] [color=660000]Behold, the man was as one of Us, [he is] knowing good and evil now.[/color]
[color=0000CC]For fear that he stretch out his hand and take of the tree of life and eat to live forever,
[b]:23[/b] the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.[/color]

Quote:
to eat that tree would mean no death at all.

No death at all for only those who eat of the Tree of Life.

Quote:
But would also be separated from God forever. with all mankind.

No, they were not separated from God after they repented and when God clothed them.
God made the way to be reconciled to Him through Jesus (The Lamb slain from the foundation of the World) God made coats of skin for them representing righteousness (When God cloths anyone, it represents righteousness.)

 2009/11/4 14:36Profile
brodav9
Member



Joined: 2008/2/22
Posts: 173
Sylacauga Alabama

 Re: 2 trees

Gen. 3:22 the tree to know good and evil. is a different tree than Gen. 3:23 The repenting of Adam did not change the curse. Thank God the angel kept him out of garden with a flaming sword. That was so he wouldn't eat the tree of life. There was no change due to repentance after eating the tree of knowledge. The curses were not removed even though he repented. Women today suffer pain in child birth. men still mow the weeds that were grown up after the garden. We all would be in the garden if he hadn't sinned. So the tree of life was kept out of reach because repenting would not change the consequences of eating it. Christ Jesus came to be our second Adam. 1Cor.15:22 though he repented still all who are in Adam die, but in Christ are made alive. Christ being the way out of death through being given eternal life, which culminates in heaven. halleluia we will live forever with Jesus. amen.


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David

 2009/11/5 9:59Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2012
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: exegesis on soul--body--spirit.

Obviously Paul saw three distinct parts of man as you referenced in 1 Thess. 5:23. The problem comes in trying to define each concisely. Soul and Spirit are definitely unique words from one another even in the Greek, although the lexicons give somewhat similar definitions for each. The best I can add is the way I understand it. There is some basis for my definition. The term for soul is sometimes translated mind and sometimes heart. However, I am not saying I am right either. It is just the way I understand it.

Spirit: The eternal part of you, who you really are. This is the part of you that was dead in trespasses and sins, but is made alive unto God by regeneration when you are born again. See Jesus' teaching in John chapter 3. It is the part of you the scripture refers to when it says we are a new creature.

Soul: Inexorably linked to the spirit, but yet distinct. Composed of the combined faculties of mind, will, and emotions. Not the mind as in teh gray matter that is designed to be the control mechanism for the body, but the true mind of a person that thinks, considers, ponders, and chooses. The soul is the part of us that must be renewed as in Hebrews 12:2. It is very hard to separate soul and spirit. According to Hebrews 4:12, the word of God has the ability to do this. Often times we talk about someone walking in the soulish realm rather than in the spirit, and we take that to mean that they are seeing things through the eyes of the natural mind and emotions rather than allowing these things to be governed by the born again spirit which is in fellowship and communion with the Holy Spirit.

I see, however, times in scripture where context suggests that these two terms are used almost interchangeably. I would say that is how closely linked soul and spirit are.

I am not sure I would say according to the NT that soul is the person and the person is the body containing the spirit, although we do commonly apply that very definition in modern English (i.e., thirty souls were on board...) I would say that personality is the synthesis of soul and spirit. The person is the soul and spirit together inhabiting the body. But then again, the body is not who the person really is, but is interchangeable, or better yet transformable into a glorified body eventually, but the spirit and soul are eternal.

Hope that gives you something more to think about.


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Travis

 2009/11/5 22:15Profile
JoanM
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Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: exegesis on soul--body--spirit.

I found a lot of meat in the recent conference in Indianapolis. You might want to consider something Bill Gothard mentioned with respect to those who are born-again:

[b]”I am a spirit, in a body, with a soul.”[/b] He related this to “Putting the intellect (one aspect of the soul) under the authority of the Word of God.” and “It is the spirit that discerns/reveals God's will/word.” When I shared this with my brother, whose death of self involved his intellect (deep into the pride of it), he said [b]“Precisely.”[/b] What a death to legalism and all the "Truth without Spirit" we hear/read these days.

My brother has the gift of teaching and I must say, after his death of self there was quite a change in effectiveness, among other things. The first bible study he offered more than 60 showed up in a fellowship of 120 regular attenders. (10 is the usual group size.)

One thing I appreciate about Bill Gothard: what's the point of getting clear about Truth if there is no application? His distillations nail things. Since they may not release a tape of his message I may copy my notes for SI.

I have meditated and found the Word of God elaborating on this subject several times since I watched the web-cast. I am appreciating this thread.

 2009/11/5 23:15Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK

 Re:

[b]Spirit Soul and Body[/b]

If we are to have a exegeis we must get it right we can't say soul, body, spirit. We are first and foremost a Spirit. When we are born anew it's our spirit that gets born anew. John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Soul This is made up our mind, will and emotions our personality if you like.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says: "Soul has various shades of meaning in the Old Testament, which may be summarized as follows: Soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, appetite, emotion and passion.

Mental faculties, emotions Gen 34:3 Num 21:4
Appetites, and animal desires Prov 6:30 Gen 34:3

After we are born a new the soul needs to be sanctified. For example a drug addict gets born again now he might get totally delivered at conversion that is sanctification in part of his soul. He has no desire for drugs any more.

Body when you look in the mirror thats what you see, this area needs glorification. In the process of salvation Paul lists glorification as the last and final event Romans 8:28-30 Glorification is the completion, the perfection, the full realization of salvation.

When may we expect this wonderful experience to come about? When Christ returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord



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Colin Murray

 2009/11/6 16:03Profile





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