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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

I believe that this new movement will not start in North America, it will start where the established church has all but been swept away, somewhere like Scotland.



So far as I have understood it, history seems to show that the house churches of China have largely met under the beliefs talked about on this thread. They've been doing that for over half a century now I believe. I know some classical denominations try to exist under the harsh conditions of China, but so far as I've heard, they are rather small in comparison to the general thrust of the Chinese church.

Perhaps a better example than IHOP would be Art Katz's, Ben Israel. Granted, not nearly as big. But, a lot of people have moved there over the years to form a community.


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Jimmy H

 2009/11/2 19:31Profile
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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

elected wrote:

Very enlightening posts, thx for sharing. In Hebrews 13: 7 is said, "remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God.Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith."

Leaders in the local church were prural, that was the divine pattern of NT church government.

They ministered the word of God to the church, they were godly men, an example to follow in faith as they followed their Chief Shepherd.

"Consider the outcome of their way of life." Their lives were holy, they were men of God with spiritual maturity and a great compassion for the lost and tender love for the flock of God.

Their character was blameless and noble. These elders qualified for spiritual leadership because they had the godly qualities and charisma to be fit for the noble call of shepherding the flock of th Lord.

There is one thing even more important than the divine pattern of church government, it is men of God in the church with a burning heart for Gods glory and for a genuine fellowship among believers.

There are churches who practice the plurality of leadership (eldership) in the church who aren't any better i believe than those who are led by one pastor.

God will keep us reponsible according to the light revealed to us by the Holy Spirit in His Word.


Along with the essential change in church structure being discussed in this thread, I believe that the practice of looking for professional diplomas or certificates in evaluating the qualifications of potential church ministers should be dropped entirely. There is no educational institution able to replace the Holy Spirit as the educator and enabler of Godly men to do God's work. The professionalization of Christian ministry workers has resulted in the proliferation of wolves in sheep's clothing, certified for their course work but without the anointing of God or the endorsement of the Holy Spirit. Christian leadership should be de-professionalized and re-Spiritualized.

 2009/11/2 19:41Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Along with the essential change in church structure being discussed in this thread, I believe that the practice of looking for professional diplomas or certificates in evaluating the qualifications of potential church ministers should be dropped entirely. There is no educational institution able to replace the Holy Spirit as the educator and enabler of Godly men to do God's work. The professionalization of Christian ministry workers has resulted in the proliferation of wolves in sheep's clothing, certified for their course work but without the anointing of God or the endorsement of the Holy Spirit.



I agree in regard to using a degree to evaluate one's "ministry readiness." Ministry readiness should be judged by the local church in regard to the quality of a man's ministry and the character of his life. I would say though, I wouldn't mind still seeing the continued existence of schools for the production at least of Christian scholars. There is defintely a great benefit to the Church in producing quality Christian scholars. These might not need to be acredited institutions that universities recognize, but, wherever possible, I believe such should be desired so as at least to produce some ministers who at least have attained to such a quality of discipline of study.


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Jimmy H

 2009/11/2 19:46Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

In regards to how this eldership structure can be formed in the church, my experience is that in most cases it will have to start with a fresh work.

Our own fellowship operates under this structure and we willingly share this paradigm with those who are interested. A very common statement among people who visit us is, "so who is the pastor?" We often say, "Well, there is a pastor among us, and he happens to be an elder over the body, but we have no 'pastor' in the sense that you are wondering." This always leads to an opportunity to share what we see as the Biblical paradigm for church leadership.

We cannot be so dogmatic as to denounce other structures. We simply believe this structure to be the Biblical model, and to be best.


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Travis

 2009/11/2 21:08Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
I believe that the practice of looking for professional diplomas or certificates in evaluating the qualifications of potential church ministers should be dropped entirely. There is no educational institution able to replace the Holy Spirit as the educator and enabler of Godly men to do God's work. The professionalization of Christian ministry workers has resulted in the proliferation of wolves in sheep's clothing, certified for their course work but without the anointing of God or the endorsement of the Holy Spirit. Christian leadership should be de-professionalized and re-Spiritualized.



I agree.

In our brotherhood, we ordain leadership out of the existing brothers in the fellowship. They must be persons who will meet the qualification as outlined in 1Timothy 3:1-14. And we have several in the pastoral leadership.

Our churches also encourage their youth to attend Bible Schools (now called Bible Institute) for an in depth study of the WORD. The pastors in our church are all Bible scholars.

Having said all this, these brethren are all men subject to sin and temptation. The devil will work still to bring failure of any kind into a brotherhood, including those in leadership. For this reason it is essential that the members pray regularly for their leaders. They are made with flesh and bones like the rest.

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2009/11/3 8:47Profile
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Joined: 2009/6/14
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 Re:

Quote:
I agree in regard to using a degree to evaluate one's "ministry readiness." Ministry readiness should be judged by the local church in regard to the quality of a man's ministry and the character of his life. I would say though, I wouldn't mind still seeing the continued existence of schools for the production at least of Christian scholars. There is defintely a great benefit to the Church in producing quality Christian scholars. These might not need to be acredited institutions that universities recognize, but, wherever possible, I believe such should be desired so as at least to produce some ministers who at least have attained to such a quality of discipline of study.


It cannot be denied that there is merit to the sentiments you expressed here. However, there is real danger that the allure of "Christian scholarship", which can be attained whether one is Spirit-led or not, will again overshadow the inestimable worth of true Christian discipleship, which is a work of the Spirit and not of the flesh. This has been one of the greatest pitfalls of modern day Christianity, and it will continue to be a snare to the church unless we jettison it entirely.

I think you will agree with me that a true Christ-centered, Spirit-filled disciple will always outshine even the most accomplished bible scholar. The best fruits of the greatest human intellect would pale in comparison to the deep things revealed and magnified by the Holy Spirit of God. While we may continue to encourage the disciplined study and scholarship taught by human institutions, I propose it should never again be included as a consideration in choosing men for leadership positions in the church. That choice should always be life versus life, heart versus heart, spirit versus spirit, illuminated by the prayers of the saints, the leading of the Holy Spirit, and the guidance of Scripture.

 2009/11/4 0:47Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

I agree. Though to be specific, we should encourage the proper and healthy development of both, a spirit-filled, life giving minister, whose knowledge of the word of God is scholarly, but not merely in an academic sort of way. To me, it's not so much an either/or, but a both/and issue. Both/and should be desired whenever possible. Though unfortunately I will probably never go on to doctoral studies like I originally intended, that doesn't mean I don't attempt to study as fully as I can. The apostle Paul had a revealed knowledge of the gospel that caused him to see well beyond what his contemporary Jewish scholars could see in their mere academic training. But, it is evident that he still made use of his academic knowledge where it was practically applicable. Or you might consider such individuals as Art Katz, whose knowledge of the Scriptures was very theological and very academic, but at the same time, greatly based on revelation and illumination from the Holy Spirit.


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Jimmy H

 2009/11/4 7:07Profile









 Re: Peter and John were not qualified men.



Isn't it odd, that the Lord chose the original 12 disciples, and it seems that none of them were educated!

Acts 4:13
"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus."



It bothers me that those who consider themselves the "Priest Class", or in the "ministry", always seem to want to hold up a banner,[education] or a stipulation [scholars] that would qualify them. [and thereby disqualify someone else.]


You will know them by their fruit. The Primitive shepherds ordained by the apostles were never saddled with the restrictions that those "In Ministry" today demand. Read Timothy and Titus. Faithfulness and character, combined with a life proving their servanthood, love, and MATURITY were the only standards; NOT A DEGREE, or anything else that would propel them ABOVE the body....and they worked for a living, not sucking off of the church.



The Pharisees demanded that.

 2009/11/4 9:00
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
....and they worked for a living, not sucking off of the church.



This is what the didache says (from chapter 11):
Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there's a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet.

The modern church has strayed far from what was deemed proper in the early church...wonder what those Christians' reaction would be if they could come back for a month and observe modern Christianity?

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2009/11/4 9:51Profile
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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

Brothertom wrote:

Isn't it odd, that the Lord chose the original 12 disciples, and it seems that none of them were educated!

Acts 4:13
"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus."

It bothers me that those who consider themselves the "Priest Class", or in the "ministry", always seem to want to hold up a banner,[education] or a stipulation [scholars] that would qualify them. [and thereby disqualify someone else.]

You will know them by their fruit. The Primitive shepherds ordained by the apostles were never saddled with the restrictions that those "In Ministry" today demand. Read Timothy and Titus. Faithfulness and character, combined with a life proving their servanthood, love, and MATURITY were the only standards; NOT A DEGREE, or anything else that would propel them ABOVE the body....and they worked for a living, not sucking off of the church.

The Pharisees demanded that.


Exactly! The power of the Spirit of God is more than sufficient to enable even the lowest of men for the ministry. Academic achievement can be a help, but more often then not, it is a trap. It aggrandizes that which is of no consequence in the eyes of God, and puffs up those who have no reason to be proud.

If we are to return to the original paradigm for the Christian church, a return to the pure biblical essentials for leadership must also be part of that package.

 2009/11/4 10:23Profile





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