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ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Wow. Correct me if I am wrong, but are people on this thread opposed to all/most/some vaccinations? If this is the case, then upon what evidence are you basing this position?

I know and have read many thoughts by people who are opposed to some vaccinations...[i]but a flu vaccine[/i]? The swine flu vaccine is just another flu vaccine that is directed to prevent this particular strain of swine flu. Influenza vaccines are inarguably effective against the flu. The number of flu victims has dropped dramatically in nations that have adopted quick flu vaccination programs.

In fact, vaccination programs have been effective for other things too. The polio vaccination has almost eradicated polio -- which was a disease that horribly affected many people in the United States and around the world each year and led to countless deaths, disfigurations and permanent disabilities. Vaccines have effectively stopped the bubonic plague, smallpox, cholera, hepatitis A, diphtheria and numerous other diseases. The effectiveness of vaccines in these cases is not disputed by either medical experts or historians.

With every vaccine, education is extremely important. I wouldn't just allow the government, a hospital or doctor to vaccinate myself, my child or my wife without understanding the situation with the best of my ability and after much prayer. However, I haven't seen anything presented by the anti-vaccination crowd that entirely substantiates the claims that most vaccines are either unhelpful or, in fact, dangerous. While there have been some studies of vaccines that have questioned the effectiveness, cost effectiveness and possible side effects of certain specific vaccines, most medical researchers agree that most vaccines are exceedingly helpful in the eradication of the targeted diseases.

To be clear: I do not advocate a mandatory vaccination by the government against the will of a family. However, this should only be done by a family who has considered the cost of NOT vaccinating their child. I know a man whose parents refused to allow him to receive a polio vaccination when he was a child. He subsequently contracted polio, was treated by doctors and survived, and has lived with the results ever since. He walks with a limp due to the disfiguration of his leg.

After all of this is said: I don't believe that we should be fearful or live in fear of this present world. God knows how to take care of His children as He sees fit. Seriously, as believers and children of God, we look forward to an eternity with our Lord! Even if our lives were filled with disease, persecution, famine and loneliness -- we still look forward to that moment that we will look upon the face of our Savior. Every moment in the life of a person who lived 120 years will seem so fleeting in comparison to just a momentary look into upon His face!

Thus, we should not worry about such things. I do believe that God provides for us...and can supernaturally provide for us. Still, at present, we live within the confines of this fallen world. Men must work and provide for their families by the sweat of their brows. The sun will continue rising and falling upon believers and unbelievers alike. Many of us are still susceptible to the places in which God has placed us. Some of us have actually been sick -- even after we have come to Christ Jesus. This is not a sign of unbelief or faithlessness. It is just that we are still living in this present world.

Paul encouraged Timothy to "drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities" (I Timothy 5:23). Why? Wine (and/or grape juice) contain elements that are helpful to the digestive system. Some of those elements are altered by time and are actually enhanced to be additionally helpful to the body (such as the anti-oxidants). Similarly, a vaccine is usually a natural dose that contains a weakened or somewhat altered agent that the God-given immune system within the human body can more readily recognize as a foreign agent and easily destroy.

As far as the issue of abortion: I do not understand the problem with my initial comments. I am 100% against abortion...which I think that I made clear earlier. I do believe that God will judge all of those who participate in the sin of abortion. This includes the physicians who make money destroying unborn babies, the politicians and activist judges who fight to make this a "right," the women who selfishly choose to kill their unborn, and the fathers who are often not-present to offer emotional or financial support in the raising of the child in the first place (I agree, MaryJane).

Look, I didn't think that this would be turned into a hotly contested debate. I understand that vaccinations are sometimes controversial issues. I've read many legitimate arguments about certain vaccinations (and I mean CERTAIN with a limited connotation). However, I still do not understand the rage that this can cause. I am puzzled by those state that my opinion is typical of the "medical establishment" and then repeat a possible vaccination/autism link that is supposedly found by people within the medical establishment (but without citing that source for their argument).

It is almost as if someone is suggesting that there is something "sinister" on behalf of the medical experts or government in regard to the swine flu, the swine flu vaccination or other vaccinations. This reeks of "conspiracy" -- and a "conspiracy" that is spread by rumors that aren't validated by any citations of evidence. Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't understand exactly WHY people are opposed to the swine flu vaccination (or any specific vaccination or vaccinations in general). If this is the case, what is the evidence for your position?

It is easy to say that God is our provider. I believe that too! I believe that God can provide JOBS to help men to provide for their families. I believe that God can provide MEDICINE to help provide for relief (just as Paul instructed Timothy). I also believe that God can provide preventive measures to avoid diseases like the swine flu, polio and even a common cold (such as common sense approaches AND/OR vaccinations). I also believe that God is the "Great Physician" -- and can either preserve us so that we don't get sick in the first place, or heal us supernaturally if we do.

I suppose that I feel a little lost here, because I might not fully understand the controversy in the first place. I don't know if anyone has articulated the "bottom line" fully or clearly. If they have and I somehow missed it, please forgive me.


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Christopher

 2009/10/25 13:17Profile
HeartSong
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Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3165


 Re:

Quote:
I also believe that God is the "Great Physician" -- and can either preserve us so that we don't get sick in the first place, or heal us supernaturally if we do.


If you truly believe this, then why would you choose to get a vaccination?



Please forgive me for the harshness of my previous post - it was uncalled for.

 2009/10/25 14:02Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings Chris

I am not against all vaccines and I do not think that if someone chooses to have themselves or their children vaccinated that is in any way saying that you don't trust in the Lord. I just do not trust this particular vaccines because of how quickly it is being put out there. I do not believe it has truly been tested as it should be. Its a personal conviction for me and I did go over this with my boys doctor. He even agree that since they are homeschooled there really was not a need for them to get it. This is my heart on this.

Chris I know your heart on abortion and that you are strongly against it. No one who has ever read any of your post could think other wise. You have always spoken against it very strongly.

You wrote:It is easy to say that God is our provider. I believe that too! I believe that God can provide JOBS to help men to provide for their families. I believe that God can provide MEDICINE to help provide for relief (just as Paul instructed Timothy).
___

I agree with you on this Chris and I do not see anything wrong or sinful or not trusting God by using medicines or preventive care. God is faithful and does care for all our needs and this includes medicines, doctor visits, jobs, food, ect...

God Bless you brother
maryjane

 2009/10/25 14:47Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hi HeartSong...

Quote:
If you truly believe this, then why would you choose to get a vaccination?


I also believe that God will provide for my family...yet I still have a job and work in order to provide for them. In fact, if a man does not work in order to provide for his family -- he is worse than an infidel (I Timothy 5:8). Perhaps the job itself is a means through which God provides?

Similarly, I believe that God gifts certain doctors, nutritionists and medical experts about the human body. Just because we realize that it is ultimately God who takes care of us does not mean that we can just give up and do nothing. We can take measures to care for this body...which is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. We can watch what we eat, what we drink, and avoid circumstances that might be harmful. This isn't demonstrating a lack of faith...but an understanding about the complexity of the human body that God designed.

God certainly doesn't have to use vaccines in order to preserve believers from sickness. Yet vaccines and medicines DO prevent sickness and can provide cure (just like the medicine applied to Hezekiah at the urging of Isaiah the prophet in II Kings 20:1-7).

Remember, God doesn't need humans to accomplish anything. For instance, God could have killed Goliath in an instance. Yet God didn't do it himself. He allowed David to choose five smooth stones and throw one of them at the giant. God used David's skill...enhanced it...which slew the giant.

I have to wonder if many of the people who are against vaccines or medicine have EVER been sick?

?


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Christopher

 2009/10/25 14:55Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hi MaryJane,

Thank you sister.


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Christopher

 2009/10/25 14:59Profile
HeartSong
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Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3165


 Re:

Quote:
I have to wonder if many of the people who are against vaccines or medicine have EVER been sick?


I have not had a vaccination since I was a small child. It can remember having the flu only a few times in my life.

Since the Lord got a hold of me I have only been sick once - and that was because He wanted me to spend the whole day with Him because I had been too busy doing other things and was ignoring Him.

I also lost my voice in Scotland, at the end of the conference, but the Lord did that to prove to me that I could still sing even when I had lost my voice.

I also burned my hand really bad - but the Lord healed it without any medication. I prayed and put ice on it, and the Lord healed it.

When I do not feel good, I pray and the Lord shows me what I need to adjust. These things that He has done gives me ever increasing faith, but I must trust Him in order for Him to show forth His saving power. And if He chooses not to heal me, and I die, that is all the better for then I will be with Him eternally.

Oh, I forgot the really bad rash that I had on my face - that was a lesson on vanity. Again, He healed it - when the time was right.

 2009/10/25 16:01Profile
HeartSong
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Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3165


 Re:


Then was the king exceedingly glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no manner of hurt was found upon him, [i][b][u]because[/u][/b][/i] he believed in his God. - Daniel 6:23

 2009/10/25 16:43Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hi HeartSong...

This sounds a lot like the "prosperity" view that people who have faith will not get sick. Paul was sick -- and experienced harm quite a bit. God did NOT protect Paul through some of his beatings.

I suppose that I don't understand the extent to which you believe that people will not get sick.

Are you opposed to medicine, vaccines, etc... because you believe that they are a demonstration of a lack of faith?

*EDIT - I have known some extremely godly men and women who have, from time to time, become sick. James even instructed believers who had become sick to go before the elders of the Church. While they would be healed through the prayer of faith, the fact remains that they became sick in the first place.


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Christopher

 2009/10/25 16:48Profile
IWantAnguish
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Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


 Re:

I may begin to think about taking the H1N1 vaccine when the developers take the vaccine.

But, seeing the fact that they are not taking the vaccine themselves, and that they are preventing their families from taking it, I do not trust it.

A vaccine made with a large amount of mercury will not be good for your immune system, no matter how much the government says it is good for you...


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Sba

 2009/10/25 17:05Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hi IWantAnguish...

Quote:
I may begin to think about taking the H1N1 vaccine when the developers take the vaccine.

But, seeing the fact that they are not taking the vaccine themselves, and that they are preventing their families from taking it, I do not trust it.


What is the source for this claim? I can't seem to find anything that substantiates this.
Quote:
A vaccine made with a large amount of mercury will not be good for your immune system, no matter how much the government says it is good for you...


Do you know how much mercury is in the swine flu vaccine? Where is the source for this claim?

I am not saying that you are wrong; however, I am concerned with allegations that aren't substantiated by credible citations. A quick Google search only lists some of the anti-vaccine claims for previous vaccines. Thanks for any sources that you can provide.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/25 17:21Profile





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