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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Can we maintain spiritual unity with doctrinal diversity in the church?

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 Re:

Waltern,

"liberal" is a subjective term as applied to theology since it is an it's core relativistic. But I do know that you probably err on the side of relativism without knowing it.

BTW, I'm waiting for you to answer my question and prove to the world that you aren't a cult member following something you can't substantiate.

I believe the Bible is the infallible inerrant Word of God and can prove why and where it came from and how it was compiled and declared canonical.

Can you?

 2009/10/17 15:35









 Re:



To Orthodox:



Orthodox said:

Quote:
[b]BTW, I'm waiting for you to answer my question and prove to the world that you aren't a cult member following something you can't substantiate.

I believe the Bible is the infallible inerrant Word of God and can prove why and where it came from and how it was compiled and declared canonical

[/b]

Walter responds to Orthodox:

Sir, you err because you have only heard one side of the story, from Roman Catholicism. Of course it would be skewed in favor of their error:


A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE OF THE BELIEVING CHURCH AND ITS GREEK TEXT:

I. Believers at Antioch (1st. century)

A. The believers in Antioch were the first to be called "Christians" (Acts 11:26).

B. Since Antioch is in Syria, they translated the Bible into Old Syrian. This Bible agrees with the KJB and not the Catholic line of mss.

C. The believers at Antioch copied the Scriptures in both Syrian and Greek on papyrus (a paper-like material).

II. Believers in Greece (1st.-3rd. century)
A. They used the Greek text of Antioch and rejected the Greek text of Alexandria Egypt as corrupt. (Fuller, p. 194-215).

[b]B. This is the church which departed from Rome and the Catholic church in the 4th century. History shows that the text of the KJB always goes away from the Roman Catholic Church. This being a historical fact, then why go back to Rome to make a new translation?[/b]

C. These believers copied Scripture on papyrus in both Greek and Old Latin (not Jerome's Latin Vulgate, but Old Latin). This Bible was translated in 150 A.D. and agrees in its text with the KJB, not the modern translations.

III. Believers in Northern Italy (3rd.-12th century)

A. They copied and used the Old Latin Bible and rejected the vulgate as corrupt.

[b]B. These believers were called "Waldensens" and were known for the evangelism they did and the street preaching.

C. During the Inquisitions by the Catholic church, the Waldensens were the believers who were put to death (see "Foxe's Book of Martyr's")

IV. Believers in Early England and France (2nd.-17th. century)

A. They used the Old Latin Bible of the Waldensens as the official translation. They also copied the Greek text which later came to be called the Receptus.

B. These believers were very evangelistic and suffered much under Rome.[/b]

(1453) Moslems take Constantinople. Great exodus of Greek scholars from there to Western Europe, bringing with them Greek manuscripts of the Bible FROM THE BELIEVING CHURCH, NOT FROM ROME.[/b]

V. Erasmus (1466-1536 A.D.)
A. Erasmus compiled the Greek mss. of the believers in Greece, Italy, England, and France and the Old Syrian and Latin translations to produce the Greek N.T. the Reformers used.

B. Note, this was the Greek text of the Reformation. This line always goes away from Rome.

VI. Luther (16th. century)

A. Luther translated the Bible into German using the text of Erasmus. He rejected the Greek text of the Catholic church (the text modern translations use).

B. Luther was the father of the Reformation.

VII. The King James Bible (1611)

A. The N.T. was translated off the Greek text of the Reformation. The translators rejected Jerome's Vulgate and the Catholic Bible.

B. The translators were men of God who knew their task. Note the following concerning a few of the translators of the Y-M.

1. Dr. Lansalot Andrews He was the chairman. He spoke 20 languages. He spent 5 hours a day in prayer. (see E. M. Bound, "Power Through Prayer" p. 33).

2. Dr. John Reynolds, Puritan leader. He spoke Hebrew and Greek as well as he could English by the time he was 18 years old.

3. Dr. John Boise He spoke Hebrew by the time he was 5 Years old. By the time he was 14 years old he spoke Greek. He spent from 4:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. studying each day.

4. Dr. Miles Smiths He spoke Chaldee, Syriac, and Arabic as well as he could English. He also served with Dr. Thomas Bilson as one of the two final editors of the whole King James Bible.

5. Dr. William Bedwell: He was called the father of Arabic studies in England. He wrote Lexicons in Arabic, Hebrew, Syriac and Chaldean. (Note: a Lexicon is like a Dictionary telling the meaning of words and their root meaning).

6. Dr. Thomas Holland: Not only was he a great Hebrew and Greek scholar, but a man of great dedication to God. His dying words were, "Come, 0 come, Lord Jesus, Thou Morning Star! Come, Lord Jesus; I desire to be dissolved and to be with Thee."

7. Dr. Laurence Chaderton: He was noted for his knowledge of Latin, Hebrew and Greek. He also spoke French, Spanish, and Italian ' Because of his Christian faith his father cut him off from his family. People enjoyed his preaching so much that they would beg him to preach even after he had just preached a two hour sermon! He was committed to personal witnessing. He said of his household servants, "I desire as much to have my servants know the Lord as myself."

8. All the translators of the KJB suffered under the reign of Queen Mary (also called "Bloody Mary") before James became King of England. This is the only Bible committee to suffer persecution of their faith.

NOTE: For more information on the above translators and the others, see "Which Bible?" pp. 13-24, or the book by Dr. Gustavus S. Paine, "The Men Behind The KJB"

C. The text of the KJB is the same today as it was in 1611, (see enclosed "A Brief Summary of Some Objections to the King James Bible", V.)

D. The translators of the KJB believed they translated the pure word of God. (see Appendix 2).

E. The Greek text of the KJB is based on the majority of all Greek mss. and the line of Bible Believers throughout Church history.

F. The KJB is the Bible of the Great Awakening, the Well's Revival, the preaching of Edwards, Wesley, Moody, Carry, Hudson Taylor, Sunday, Spurgeon, etc., and every major revival from 1611 until now! No modern translation (or its Greek text) can make the same claim.
Matthew 12:33 "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known of his fruit."

1. The tree of the modern translation is corrupt, how can the translation be good?

2. The tree of the KJB is pure, how can the translation be bad?

3. The fruit of the KJB is Reformation and Revival, not Rome.

4. The modern translation says it is with error, the KJB says it is without error. Which one would you want to read???

5. The Bible always calls for choices (Josh. 24:15); this is also true in reading a Bible translation. You must choose which one you will read. Do so, not by what men say, but by the Word of God .


[color=990000]This is a comparison between the King James Bible of the believing Church & the New Jerusalem Bible, the Bible created by the Gnostics and embraced by Rome. The King James is the Authorized Version of the Protestant Church, while the New Jerusalem Bible is the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church.[/color]


Matthew:
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Matt. 5:22. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
But I say this to you, anyone who is angry with a brother will answer for it before the court; anyone who calls a brother `Fool' will answer for it before the Sanhedrin; and anyone who calls him `Traitor' will answer for it in hell fire.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Matt. 5:27
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
`You have heard how it was said, You shall not commit adultery.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Matt 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
44. But I say this to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Matt 9:13
13. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Go and learn the meaning of the words: Mercy is what pleases me, not sacrifice. And indeed I came to call not the upright, but sinners.' .

King James Bible---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Matt 16:20
Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. Note-Jesus was his name, that meant Savior. Christ is His Title, which means Messiah!
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Then he gave the disciples strict orders not to say to anyone that he was the Christ.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Matt 18:2
And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
So he called a little child to him whom he set among them.

King James—-- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Matt 18:11
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
New Jerusalem Bible----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
[b]DELETED[/b]

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Matt 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen
New Jerusalem Bible----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Thus the last will be first, and the first, last."

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Can you drink the cup that I am going to drink?" They replied, "We can."

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
For at the resurrection men and women do not marry; no, they are like the angels in heaven.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
[b]DELETED[/b]

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Matt 25:15
And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
To one he gave five talents, to another two, to a third one, each in proportion to his ability. Then he set out on his journey.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Matt 27:35
And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
When they had finished crucifying him they shared out his clothing by casting lots,

Mark:
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Mark 1:2
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
It is written in the prophet Isaiah:Look, I am going to send my messenger in front of you to prepare your way before you.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Mark 1:14
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
After John had been arrested, Jesus went into Galilee. There he proclaimed the gospel from God saying,

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Mark 6:11
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
And if any place does not welcome you and people refuse to listen to you, as you walk away shake off the dust under your feet as evidence to them."

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Mark 7:27
But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
And he said to her, "The children should be fed first, because it is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to little dogs."

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Mark 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
[b]DELETED[/b]

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Mark 9:46
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
[b]DELETED[/b]


King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Mark 11:10
Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.
[New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Blessed is the coming kingdom of David our father! Hosanna in the highest heavens!"

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Mark 11:26
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
[b]DELETED[/b]

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Mark 12:23
In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Now at the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be, since she had been married to all seven?"

Mark 13:14
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
`When you see the appalling abomination set up where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then those in Judaea must escape to the mountains;

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Mark 15:28
And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
And they began saluting him, "Hail, king of the Jews!"

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Mark 16:9-20
9. Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. 10. And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11. And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. 12. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. 13. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. 14. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
9. Having risen in the morning on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary of Magdala from whom he had cast out seven devils. 10. She then went to those who had been his companions, and who were mourning and in tears, and told them. 11. But they did not believe her when they heard her say that he was alive and that she had seen him. 12. After this, he showed himself under another form to two of them as they were on their way into the country. 13. These went back and told the others, who did not believe them either. 14. Lastly, he showed himself to the Eleven themselves while they were at table. He reproached them for their incredulity and obstinacy, because they had refused to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. 15. And he said to them, "Go out to the whole world; proclaim the gospel to all creation. 16. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17. These are the signs that will be associated with believers: in my name they will cast out devils; they will have the gift of tongues; 18. they will pick up snakes in their hands and be unharmed should they drink deadly poison; they will lay their hands on the sick, who will recover." 19. And so the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven; there at the right hand of God he took his place, 20. while they, going out, preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the signs that accompanied it.

Luke:

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Luke 2:33
(As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
observing what is written in the Law of the Lord: Every first-born male must be consecrated to the Lord,

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Luke 2:44
But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
They assumed he was somewhere in the party, and it was only after a day's journey that they went to look for him among their relations and acquaintances.


King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
But Jesus replied, "Scripture says:Human beings live not on bread alone."

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Luke 4:8
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
But Jesus answered him, "Scripture says: You must do homage to the Lord your God, him alone you must serve."

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Luke 9:56
56. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
56 and they went on to another village.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Luke 9:57
And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
As they travelled along they met a man on the road who said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go."


King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Luke 11:2
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
He said to them, "When you pray, this is what to say:
Father, may your name be held holy, your kingdom come;

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Luke 12:31
But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
No; set your hearts on his kingdom, and these other things will be given you as well.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Luke 17:36
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
[b]DELETED[/b]


King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Luke 23:17
(For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
[b]DELETED[/b]

John:
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
and they said to the woman, "Now we believe no longer because of what you told us; we have heard him ourselves and we know that he is indeed the Saviour of the world."


King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
John 5:4
For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
[b] DELETED[/b]


King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
John 8:1-11
1. Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4. They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6. This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11. She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go,
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
1. and Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2. At daybreak he appeared in the Temple again; and as all the people came to him, he sat down and began to teach them. 3. The scribes and Pharisees brought a woman along who had been caught committing adultery; and making her stand there in the middle 4. they said to Jesus, "Master, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery, 5. and in the Law Moses has ordered us to stone women of this kind. What have you got to say?" 6. They asked him this as a test, looking for an accusation to use against him. But Jesus bent down and started writing on the ground with his finger. 7. As they persisted with their question, he straightened up and said, "Let the one among you who is guiltless be the first to throw a stone at her." 8. Then he bent down and continued writing on the ground. 9. When they heard this they went away one by one, beginning with the eldest, until the last one had gone and Jesus was left alone with the woman, who remained in the middle. 10. Jesus again straightened up and said, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11. `No one, sir," she replied. "Neither do I condemn you," said Jesus. "Go away, and from this moment sin no more."

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
John 8:29
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
he who sent me is with me,and has not left me to myself,for I always do what pleases him.

Acts:
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Acts 2:30
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
But since he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn him an oath to make one of his descendants succeed him on the throne,

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Acts 4:24
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
When they heard it they lifted up their voice to God with one heart. "Master," they prayed, "it is you who made sky and earth and sea, and everything in them;
_______________________________________________

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Acts 8:37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
[b]DELETED[/b]

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Acts 15:18
Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
known so long ago.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

31. They told him, "Become a believer in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, and your household too."
____________________________________________
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Acts 17:26
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
From one single principle he not only created the whole human race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the times and limits of their habitation. _______________________________________________
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Acts 28:29
And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
[b] DELETED[/b]
___________________________________________

Romans:
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
For I see no reason to be ashamed of the gospel; it is God's power for the salvation of everyone who has faith, Jews first, but Greeks as well,
___________________________________________
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Thus, condemnation will never come to those who are in Christ Jesus,
__________________________________________
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
And since it is by grace, it cannot now be by good actions, or grace would not be grace at all!
_________________________________________________
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
I tell you that Christ's work was to serve the circumcised, fulfilling the truthfulness of God by carrying out the promises made to the fathers,
_________________________________________________
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE

Romans 16:24
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
[b] DELETED[/b]

I Corinthians:

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE

1 Cor: 5:4
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
When you have gathered together in the name of our Lord Jesus, with the presence of my spirit, and in the power of our Lord Jesus,

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
You are not your own property, then; you have been bought at a price. So use your body for the glory of God.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
1 Cor.9:1
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
1 Cor 10:28
But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
28. But if someone says to you, "This food has been offered in sacrifice," do not eat it, out of consideration for the person that told you, for conscience's sake,

Galatians:
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Gal 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
It is not being circumcised or uncircumcised that matters; but what matters is a new creation.

Ephesians:
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
9. and of throwing light on the inner workings of the mystery kept hidden through all the ages in God, the Creator of everything.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones
Note, this refers to Christ’s resurrected body of flesh and bones- see Luke 24:39.

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
because we are parts of his Body.


Colossians:

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Col 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
and in him we enjoy our freedom, the forgiveness of sin.

1 Thess.:
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE Thes 1:1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Paul, Silvanus and Timothy, to the Church in Thessalonica which is in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace to you and peace.

I Timothy.:
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
1 Tim 3:3
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
not a heavy drinker, nor hot-tempered, but gentle and peaceable, not avaricious,

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of [color=990000][b][u]godliness[/color][/b][/u]: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Without any doubt, the mystery of our [color=990000][b][u]religion[/color][/b][/u] is very deep indeed:He was made visible in the flesh,justified in the Spirit,seen by angels,proclaimed to the gentiles,believed in throughout the world,taken up in glory.
Note:

[color=990000][b]As Christian believers, we are blood bought, purchased by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and have a personal relationship with God.[u] We do not have a religion. The world is full of “religions”, and all of them are false.We have a personal relationship with God, whom we address is Abba (Father).[/color][/b][/u]

1 John:
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
1 John 5:7
5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
5. This is what we have heard from him and are declaring to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. 6. If we say that we share in God's life while we are living in darkness,we are lying, because we are not living the truth. 7. But if we live in light,as he is in light, we have a share in another's life,and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

Revelation:
King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Rev 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
and made us a Kingdom of Priests to serve his God and Father; to him, then, be glory and power for ever and ever. Amen.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
`I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is, who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Rev 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
`Write down in a book all that you see, and send it to the seven churches of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

King James---- PROTESTANT DOCTRINE
Rev 21:24
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.
New Jerusalem Bible-----CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
The nations will come to its light and the kings of the earth will bring it their treasures.


[color=990000][b]In light of this and about 5,000 other places, how can the Catholic Bible (and all modern versions) be called Protestant Bibles? Remember, they are based on Roman Catholic mms.[/color][/b]

[b]The Bible says,

"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" —Amos 3:3[/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


 2009/10/17 16:54









 Re:

Waltern,

I am SO glad the Lord has allowed our paths to cross. I am so happy to be able to show you where these views are biased and without any merit whatsoever. Here we go:

Quote:
A. The believers in Antioch were the first to be called "Christians" (Acts 11:26).



You are talking to a guy who is a part of this very church that was started in Antioch. I am under the spiritual authority of the Patriarch of Antioch. We have a direct line of succession back to Peter. So you will be very happy to know that our liturgical text is the Syriac Peshitta.

Didn't see that coming did you?

Quote:
B. Since Antioch is in Syria, they translated the Bible into Old Syrian. This Bible agrees with the KJB and not the Catholic line of mss.



All of the extant mss are "catholic" mss. You have been misinformed.

Quote:
II. Believers in Greece (1st.-3rd. century) A. They used the Greek text of Antioch and rejected the Greek text of Alexandria Egypt as corrupt. (Fuller, p. 194-215).



The text of Antioch was Western Syriac. The Diatessaron was also used during this time. The canon was not formally defined during this time either.

But I'm sure you got all of this on a Bible Baptist site or some place like that. Don't worry they duped me too.

Quote:
B. This is the church which departed from Rome and the Catholic church in the 4th century. History shows that the text of the KJB always goes away from the Roman Catholic Church. This being a historical fact, then why go back to Rome to make a new translation?



You forget to add one important fact about the Syrian Orthodox Church. It believes in:

- the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist
- the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist
- that baptism is being born again and that therein grace is given
- "one baptism for the remission of sins"
- the holy theotokos, the virgin mary
- that Mary was a perpetual virgin
- that Mary was sinless
- in the same seven holy mysteries/sacraments of the Catholic Church

I could go on and on.

Quote:
C. These believers copied Scripture on papyrus in both Greek and Old Latin (not Jerome's Latin Vulgate, but Old Latin). This Bible was translated in 150 A.D. and agrees in its text with the KJB, not the modern translations.



"these" Greek believers never spoke latin and therefore never needed the vulgata.

You're trying to create continuity out of thin air.

Quote:
III. Believers in Northern Italy (3rd.-12th century) A. They copied and used the Old Latin Bible and rejected the vulgate as corrupt. B. These believers were called "Waldensens" and were known for the evangelism they did and the street preaching.



This is a huge criticism I have for my personal friend David Daniels' book "Did the Catholic Church give us the Bible". The Vadua or Waldensians were started by Peter Waldo (c. 1140 – c. 1218), also Pierre Vaudès or de Vaux.

It is hilarious to see the KJV onlyists try to make this wild claim of a thousand years of continuity using a man who was born in the twelfth century.

Notice...you gave the dates: "3rd.-12th century"

I here and now call you to retract your statement immediately if you love truth.

Quote:
IV. Believers in Early England and France (2nd.-17th. century) A. They used the Old Latin Bible of the Waldensens as the official translation. They also copied the Greek text which later came to be called the Receptus.



Again, please retract your ignorant statement. It is patently false. It is hard to think that you have ever been a serious student of Christian history.

Quote:
B. These believers were very evangelistic and suffered much under Rome.



The believers of the second century were very evangelistic...yes. Evangelical? Absolutely not. Have you EVER read the writings of the ante-Nicene fathers?

How could you have and have posted such wild material?

 2009/10/18 1:41









 Re: Wayne?



To Orthodox:

Do you have a real name, or are you one of the many aliases of Loingirder (also known as Wayne)?

It is obvious that you are not interested in honest debate about this issue.

I'll just offer several quotes for you to chew on:


The Bible is like a lion; it does not need to be defended; just let it loose and it will defend itself.

-- Martin Luther


[b]Former priest Charles Chiniquy said the following in 1888 in his book Fifty Years in the Church of Rome--

"...modern Protestants have not only forgotten what Rome was, what she is, and what she will forever be: the most irreconcilable and powerful enemy of the Gospel of Christ; but they consider her almost as a branch of the Church whose corner-stone is Christ... [/b]

[color=990000][b]"[The following is] an exact translation of the doctrine of the Church of Rome as taught to-day in all Roman Catholic seminaries, colleges and universities, through the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas, vol. iv., p. 90:

'Though heretics (Protestants) must not be tolerated because they deserve it, we must bear with them till, by the second admonition, they may be brought back to the faith of the church. But those who, after a second admonition, remain obstinate to their errors, must not only be excommunicated, but they must be delivered to the secular power to be exterminated.'"[/color][/b]

Good evening,

Walter

Quote:

orthodox wrote:
Waltern,

I am SO glad the Lord has allowed our paths to cross. I am so happy to be able to show you where these views are biased and without any merit whatsoever. Here we go:

DELETED



 2009/10/18 1:56









 Re:

Waltern,

Whoa...did I hit a chord or what? You can't even begin to debate me can you? I took your post point by point and this is all you can say:

Quote:
It is obvious that you are not interested in honest debate about this issue. I'll just offer several quotes for you to chew on: The Bible is like a lion; it does not need to be defended; just let it loose and it will defend itself. -- Martin Luther



Well that is where you are very wrong. I am INDEED interested in honest debate about this issue. Maybe you have met your match in the Church.

You see, the Church, like her Scriptures, is like a lion. I have let that lion out of the cage and you went running. Hmm...

But I plan to post much more about your beloved Peter Waldo.

Coming next...

 2009/10/18 2:13









 Re:

WHAT ABOUT THE WALDENSES?

The same period of Medieval history that saw the rise and suppression of the Cathars witnessed the emergence of a very different religious movement known as the Waldenses. In contrast to the Cathars, whose dualistic world- and life-view placed them in radical opposition to historic Christianity, the Waldenses began as a reform movement within the Roman Catholic Church and never imbibed Manichaean teachings.

PETER WALDO : Founder of the Waldenses

The sect owed its origin to Peter Waldo (d. 1216), known in France as Valdes. Little is known about Waldo's life, but it is clear that he was a prosperous merchant in Lyons who suddenly divested himself of his wealth in order to pursue a life of "evangelical perfection," which, to medieval Catholics, meant following the example of Christ, including the Savior's poverty.

The sources indicate that Waldo became impressed with his need to follow Christ when he heard a minstrel relate the legend of St. Alexis, who had renounced riches and separated from his wife to undertake a pilgrimage to the Holy Land. Waldo also accepted counsel from a priest who told him of Christ's command to a rich inquirer who had come to him seeking the way to eternal life. Jesus said:

"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Matthew 19:21)

His personal appropriation of the Lord's teaching to the rich young man mentioned in the Gospel reflects Waldo's habit of accepting biblical injunctions literally, and it shows his great desire to conform his life to the teachings of Christ. Waldo developed a sense of urgency to become learned in the scriptures, and to that end he paid two scholars to translate the Gospels and other portions of the Bible into his vernacular tongue.

While the behavior Waldo exhibited was unusual, it was not unprecedented, and his actions to this point did not violate the canons of the Roman Catholic Church. Vows of poverty and the study of scripture had been regular features of monastic living for centuries and enjoyed the approval of the Church. Waldo, however, was neither a monk nor a priest, but a devout layman who sought to practice "evangelical perfection" without entering a monastery. To those who ridiculed him for this, Waldo explained,

"Citizens and friends, I am not out of my mind, as you seem to think, but I am avenging myself on those who are oppressing me in making me a lover of money more than God. This act I do for myself and for you: for me, so that if from now on I possess anything you may call me a fool; for you, in order that you, too, may be led to put your hope in God and not in riches." [1]

 2009/10/18 2:14









 Re:

WALDENSES UNAUTHORIZED PREACHING

Recruits to Waldo's "Poor of Lyons" came from all levels of society. A few were priests, but most were laymen. Durand of Huesca (Spain), a scholar of some ability, became unofficial theologian for the movement, but the emphasis of these "Waldenses" was, from the start, on personal piety and good works performed in imitation of Christ and the apostles.

The movement did not seek to alter Catholic dogma and was not intended to be a separatist church. The bishops at first would have found nothing about which to object had not the Waldenses assumed the right to preach. It was unauthorized preaching in public places that aroused suspicion and led the Archbishop of Lyons to attempt to stop them.

Waldo and his disciples were ordered to submit to the bishops. To render unqualified submission would, however, have meant the end of their preaching, so the Waldenses disobeyed and brought upon themselves a barrage of clerical criticism. As of yet the Waldenses had issued no pronouncements which could have been rightly construed as heresy, and in 1180 Waldo signed a statement of faith dictated by a papal legate in which the popular exponent of apostolic living subscribed to all of the major tenets of traditional Catholicism. [2]

While Waldo and his followers had no doctrinal quarrel with Rome, their defiance of episcopal prohibitions against preaching led in 1184 to their condemnation by a synod of bishops meeting in Verona. Much to their dismay, the Waldenses were excluded from the Church and declared to be heretics.

In 1207 Durand of Huesca abandoned the Waldenses and returned to the Catholic Church. He asked Pope Innocent III to authorize an order of "Catholic Poor," a move that would be completely submissive to the hierarchy. St. Dominic Guzman had assisted Durand in recruiting small bands of Waldenses who agreed to return to Rome. Later, clerical opposition to the Catholic Poor hindered their work badly, and in 1254 Pope Innocent IV directed the Poor Catholics to merge with the Augustinian Hermits. [3]

Exclusion from the Church caused the Waldenses to re-examine dogma, with the consequence that they eventually came to espouse teachings that were heretical when judged by standards of medieval Catholic orthodoxy. The drift away from Catholic dogmas was relatively slow and uneven, and some segments of the sect became more radical than others. Waldense churches began to appear in France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, and elsewhere, and a Waldense Church remains in Italy to the present. The Waldenses comprised the only medieval sect that would survive as an organized religious body into the modern era.

 2009/10/18 2:15









 Re:

WALDENSES BEFORE WALDO : Do They Exist?

Although there is unanimous agreement among reputable scholars that the Waldenses originated with the work of Waldo, and despite the fact that modern Waldense historians themselves concur with this opinion, successionists of various affiliations have inducted them into the line of "true" churches which have maintained Gospel purity since New Testament times. As one might expect, the Waldenses have been claimed as Baptists (and Plymouth Brethren by E.H. Broadbent, and Seventh-day Adventists by Ellen G. White, and others).

Those who attempt to establish a pedigree for the Waldenses anterior to Waldo himself often refer to the work of Sir Samuel Morland, a 17th-century English author and diplomat who claimed to have found evidence that verifies the great antiquity of the sect. [4] Morland reproduced documents supposedly from the year 1120, which, he said, show that the Waldenses (French, -Vaudois-) had the scriptures for about forty years prior to the translation that Waldo obtained.

The documents in question, however, show the Bible divided into chapters, and such divisions did not appear before about 1250 or later. [5] The confession of faith produced by Morland makes it appear that the Waldenses held to a strongly Protestant-evangelical theology centuries before Luther. It is now known that this document originated in the 16th century. It contains teachings of Martin Bucer, reformer of Strasbourg, copied almost verbatim. [6]

Despite their usual aversion to Roman Catholic sources, successionists have not hesitated to cite a remark by Reinerius Saccho that the Waldenses movement is ancient,

"for some SAY that it has existed from the time of Sylvester, some from the time of the apostles."

It is clear, however, that Reinerius intended only to report a belief held mistakenly by some people. The inquisitor did not accept the legend of Waldense antiquity himself. [7]

No evidence has been found which reveals a Waldense Church prior to Waldo, and neither Waldo himself nor modern Waldense historians ever asserted such claims. Scholars hostile to the Roman Catholic Church have concurred with historians of that body in affirming Waldo as founder of the sect that still bears his name. [8]

A fitting commentary on the pursuit of pedigree has been provided by Harold S. Bender, a leading Mennonite scholar of the 20th century:

"The tempting and romantic theory of apostolic succession from the apostles down to the Anabaptists through successive Old Evangelical groups, which has been very popular with those among the Mennonites and Baptists who feel the need of such an apostolic succession, always includes the Waldenses as the last link before the Anabaptists. It has...no basis in fact." [9]

As in the case of other medieval sects, the primary documents for a study of the Waldenses come mainly from Roman Catholic sources.

[ PP : These include the work of Stephen de Bourbon, a Dominican who was well acquainted with the Waldenses; Reinerius Saccho and his -Summa- is an important source; an anonymous author from Passau also contributed material to Saccho's original work; David of Augsburg, a Franciscan, wrote -Tractatus de Inquisitione Haereticorum- (1270); and Walter Map, an English monk involved in the Third Lateran Council who examined the Waldenses in Rome (1179). ]

All of these sources as well as those of a later date agree in identifying Waldo as founder of the church which now carries his name, and the confession of Waldo himself contains no suggestions that the sect antedated his ministry. [10]

The evidence is conclusive. Waldo was the founder, and "traditions of an earlier origin, stretching back even to the days of the apostles, are fables." [11]

[ PP : At this point I wanted to quote something from Hunt's A Woman Rides the Beast (Harvest House, 1994) since McGoldrick answered these claims of Samuel Morland above on the Waldenses. Hunt repeatedly mixes up the views of the Albigenses (who were Manichees, also called the "Cathari") and the Waldenses (Vaudois or Valdenses). They were completely separate sects. The "Vaudois" was simply the French name for the Waldenses.

"In 1838 George Stanley Faber wrote An Inquiry into the History and Theology of the Ancient Valdenses and Albigenses. Nearly 200 years earlier, in 1648, Samuel Morland had published his History of the Evangelical Churches of Piedmont (an area in France populated by the Albigenses and other 'heretics.') The investigation of both of these authors drew on a number of other works going back into the 13th century. From written and public testimony at their trials, it is quite clear that the Vaudois, Albigenses, Waldenses, and other similar groups were heretics to Rome only. In fact, their beliefs were much like those of the Reformers, of whom they were, in a sense, the forerunners." (Hunt, page 257, emphasis mine)

Furthermore, Mick James, an anti-Catholic Baptist of FidoNet, wrote to me via the Internet on 2/21/97 :

"Another book I just got done reading is called The Waldenses Were Independent Baptists. This book quotes a lot from 2 books by ANGLICAN HISTORIANS from the 17th century who wrote extensively on these groups from the Valleys of Piedmont. Both of these works prove that groups like the Waldenses were baptistic in their doctrine."

Now let's get the facts on the table concerning the Waldenses that answer these wild speculations of Hunt and others.]

 2009/10/18 2:16









 Re:

WHAT DID WALDO AND THE WALDENSES REALLY BELIEVE?

It is clear that the Waldenses were far less heretical than the Cathars and agreed, at least in the early years of their history, with the Roman Catholic Church on most points of doctrine. This is to be expected, since Waldo hoped to gain papal approval for his movement.

On theology proper that is, the doctrine of God, Waldo and his disciples upheld the orthodox Catholic belief in the Trinity and the two natures of Christ. The Waldenses did not imbibe Cathar dualism. The pope, in fact, commended Waldo for opposing the Cathars. Because Waldo's confession of faith is quite specific in its affirmation of loyalty to traditional Catholicism, it bears quoting at length:

WALDO ("Valdesius") CONFESSION OF FAITH : Catholic to the Core

"In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary. Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brethren, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that we profess openly that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God....

"We firmly believe and explicitly declare that the incarnation of the Divinity did not take place in the Father and the Holy Spirit, but solely in the Son, so that he who was the divine Son of God the Father was also true man from his Mother.

"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....

"We firmly believe in the judgment to come and in the fact that each man will receive reward or punishment according to what he has done in this flesh. We do not doubt the fact that alms, sacrifice, and other charitable acts are able to be of assistance to those who die.

"And since, according to the Apostle James, faith without works is dead, we have renounced this world and have distributed to the poor all that we possess, according to the will of God, and we have decided that we ourselves should be poor in such a way as not to be careful for the morrow, and to accept from no one gold, silver, or anything else, with the exception of raiment and daily food. We have set before ourselves the objective of fulfilling the Gospel counsels as precepts.

"We believe that anyone in this age who keeps to a proper life, giving alms and doing other good works from his own possessions and observing the precepts from the Lord, can be saved.

"We make this declaration in order that if anyone should come to you affirming that he is one of us, you may know for certain that he is not one of us if he does not profess this same faith." [12]

In a statement of faith submitted to the bishop of Albano, Peter Waldo affirmed his belief in transubstantiation, prayers for the dead, and infant baptism. [13] The famed Baptist historian A.H. Newman drew the only conclusion warranted by the evidence.

"Waldo and his early followers had more in common with...Roman Catholicism than with any evangelical party. His views of life and doctrine were scarcely in advance of many earnest Catholics of the time." [14]

TWO WINGS OF WALDENSES : French (Lyons) and Italians (Lombardy)

About the same time that the earliest Waldenses were presenting their requests to Pope Alexander III, a comparable movement was forming in Italy. These "Poor of Lombardy" likewise asked for papal endorsement, and they too were denied the right to preach.

The groups amalgamated to a degree under Waldo's leadership and dispatched missionaries to spread their teachings to various countries. Those who were unable to preach formed communities for the practice of an ascetic life and manual labor in a generally monastic fashion.

The union of the Poor of Lyons with the Poor of Lombardy was a rather brief duration because of serious disputes over doctrine and practice.

The Italian Waldenses appear to have been more radical in their views in that they were known to recruit nuns, to separate husbands and wives, and to claim that their church alone could offer salvation. The split became irreparable by about 1205, and the Italians elected Giovanni di Ronco as their leader.

A letter from the Poor of Lombardy to the Poor of Lyons (1218) is extant, and it contains valuable information about the theological issues which contributed to the division. The letter, which is in the form of a report on the proceeding at Bergamo, shows that the nature of the sacraments was evidently a matter of strong contention.

WALDENSES BELIEF IN TRANSUBSTANTIATION AND INFANT BAPTISM

The Lombards related the issues in this way :

"To the question they [the Poor of Lyons] raised concerning baptism, we replied as follows : We affirm that no one can be saved who refuses the material water of baptism and that unbaptized infants are not saved. This we called on them to believe and profess....

"One point of difference between us and the companions of Valdes...concerned the breaking or SACRIFICE [emphasis author] of the bread. As we have verified, their judgment differs from ours...

"In the first place, some of the companions of Valdes maintain that the substance of the bread and wine is transformed into the body and blood of Christ by the Word of God, adding that the power comes not from men but from God.

"To this we objected, saying that, if the bread and wine are transubstantiated...by the mere mention of the Word of God, it follows that any person, Jew or pagan, could pronounce the Word of God on the bread and wine, and, according to this opinion, it would be transformed into the body and blood of Christ.

"This is absolutely impious and cannot be sustained by any valid authority and is unreasonable....They have acknowledged that the sacrament cannot be performed by women or laymen, but only by the PRIEST. They also said that no one, good or bad, but only He who is God and man, that is, CHRIST, can transubstantiate the bread and wine into the body and blood." [15]

Despite the differences between the two wings of the Waldenses, it is clear that BOTH the French and the Italians believed in transubstantiation and a ministerial priesthood to consecrate the bread and wine. The letter states explicitly that the Lombardy Waldenses considered infant baptism essential for salvation, and the same document seems to imply that the French practiced pedobaptism but that they did not regard it as necessary for one to be saved.

Although later Waldenses became Protestants and embraced the Reformed view of salvation by faith alone, the early generations of the sect maintained the essentially Catholic view that salvation comes by faith plus works of charity.

As Emilio Comba, late professor in the Waldensian Theological College at Florence, Italy, stated,

"we shall...seek in vain in the creed of the early Waldenses for those tenets which characterize Protestantism." [16]

The Waldenses, who later moved away from the orthodox Catholic view on soteriology, in the early phase of their history retained a priest-centered, sacramental view of salvation. They accepted all seven sacraments of the Catholic Church, including infant baptism, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and priestly absolution from sin. In fact, a Waldense confession of faith composed at the relatively late date of 1508 espoused all of these tenets. [17]

Another document of Waldense origin is a poem entitled the -Noble Lesson- and comes to us from the 15th century. It contains a clear affirmation of the Catholic teaching on the sacrament of Penance.

"To make our confession sincerely, without any defect: and to do penance during the present life: to fast, to give alms, and to pray with a fervent heart; indeed, through these things the soul finds salvation." [18]

THE MODERN WALDENSE CHURCH : Protestants but never Baptists

During the period of coexistence with the Roman Catholic Church, the Waldenses did not deny the power of the Catholic priesthood and the validity of the sacraments it dispensed. Only after the rupture became irreparable, however, did they denounce the papacy as anti-Christ and claimed that the Waldense Church was THE body of Christ, outside of which there was no salvation. Romanism was viewed as the Beast of the Apocalypse, and Pope Sylvester I was regarded as the first Antichrist. [19]

In the matter of baptism, the Waldenses became divided among themselves. The early Waldenses maintained the view that baptism is essential for salvation, and they administered it to infants. David of Augsburg and the anonymous author from Passau, however, reported that the Waldenses demanded believer's baptism and therefore rebaptized those who had received the sacrament in infancy. Passau Anonymous also indicated that some Waldenses used the laying on of hands as a substitute for water baptism, but it appears that he confused the Waldenses' practice with that of the Albigenses.

It is evident that many Waldenses retained the traditional practice of pedobaptism, while a minority faction discarded that in favor of believer's baptism. The latter were, however, the innovaters who altered the original practice of the sect. The modern Waldense Church in Italy continues to baptize infants.

By the early 16th century the theological character of the Waldenses had developed to the point where it contrasted rather sharply with that of the movement as founded by Peter Waldo. Moving ever more away from traditional Catholic teachings, it assumed features that correspond somewhat to the Protestant beliefs that would be proclaimed by Martin Luther and the other Reformers.

The Waldense Church today numbers about 20,000 adherents in Italy and another 5,000 elsewhere. Although its Protestant character was established by its union with the Reformed Church, in 1974 the Italian Waldense Church joined with the Methodists in a single synod. It is clear then that the modern Waldense Church differs from both its medieval origin and the modified body that emerged during the Reformation. At no time in their history were the Waldense Baptists, despite some beliefs such as the concept of a free church, which the two groups have held in common.

Neither Waldo nor his early disciples could have subscribed to any historic Baptist confession of faith, and those doctrines that are peculiarly baptistic would have been unacceptable to Waldenses in any period of their history. Although successionists have hailed them as Baptists, medieval Waldenses were quite similar to the Catholic Franciscans, those of the Reformation were akin to Presbyterians, and those of today have become Methodists.

 2009/10/18 2:18
wayneman
Member



Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 453
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
To Orthodox:

Do you have a real name, or are you one of the many aliases of Loingirder (also known as Wayne)?



No, orthodox is not LoinGirder, and not everyone who criticizes fundamentalism is an Illuminati infiltrator. As LoinGirder pointed out, fundamentalism defines "faith" as "sound doctrine." This in itself is the Mother of All Doctrinal Errors. So there's no reason to assign diabolical motives to everyone who shags on fundamentalism.


_________________
Wayne Kraus

 2009/10/18 9:10Profile





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