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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


 Re:

I'm not sure that we should even focus on some silly ideological persuasion about the possible "limits" of God's sacrifice -- or how that would play in our "evangelism."

[b]John 3:16[/b]

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that [u]whosoever[/u] believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[b]II Corinthians 5:14-15[/b]

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for [u]all[/u], then were all dead: 15And that he died for [u]all[/u], that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[b]I Timothy 2:3-6[/b]

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have [u]all[/u] men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for [u]all[/u], to be testified in due time.

[b]1 Timothy 4:10[/b]

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of [u]all[/u] men, specially of those that believe.

[b]Titus 2:11[/b]

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

[b]I John 2:2[/b]

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for [u]ours only[/u], but also for the sins of the [u]whole world[/u].

I don't think that it would be "Good News" if we told people that Jesus might or might [u]NOT[/u] have died for them. Regardless, I'm not sure that such a thing should be in our "evangelical" message.

:-P


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/7 19:26Profile









 Re:

Logic,

I rejoiced over every word I read of yours. How logical!

The obedience Christ gave to the law was not a work of supererogation, because He owed obedience to the law.

But the suffering and death of Christ was a work of supererogation, because He owed no suffering or death.

We are not justified by the works of the law (Christ's imputed obedience).

We are justified by grace through His blood (atonement).

The idea that we need the imputed obedience of Christ to be justified is basically saying that the grace of God and the atonement of Christ is not enough!

The atonement of Christ is what saves us. And like ccchhhrrriiisss said, the atonement has been made for everyone!

The atonement makes forgiveness possible for all. If a man is drowning in the ocean and you throw him a life preserver, that has made his rescue possible! And when he chooses to take a hold of it, that life preserver saves his life!

Likewise, since Jesus Christ has died for everyone, the salvation of everyone is possible. And when men choose to repent of their sins and believe the Gospel, the atonement saves their life!

 2009/10/7 21:57
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
IWantAnguish wrote:

He (God) has granted me the grace through the Holy Spirit to love Him...

Sorry for being nit picky, but, no one needs grace to love God. Loving God is a natural thing for His creation to do.

 2009/10/7 22:42Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


 Re:

I would strongly disagree.

I hated God with a passion before He saved me.

Why doesn't all of humanity love God if its 'natural?'


_________________
Sba

 2009/10/7 22:49Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Sorry for being nit picky, but, no one needs grace to love God. Loving God is a natural thing for His creation to do.



At one point in our lives we were at enmity with God. And we were not at such because we love God naturally. It takes God to love God. Unless His grace brought about the transformation of our hearts and minds that we were in such desperate need of because of the corruption we experienced through sin, we would not and could not love God. For our sin made us haters of God. But having seen the love of God demonstrated towards us, that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us, that loving act of His grace, when received, causes us to love God.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/10/7 22:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Loving God is a natural thing for His creation to do.



Quote:
I hated God



Quote:
At one point in our lives we were at enmity with God.



God has so designed mankind that we cannot but approve of His actions and delight in His good character. Our conscience delights in God. The sinner in Romans 7 said that he delights in the law of God after the inward man (the conscience or the mind). It is not our constitution that disapproves of God. It is the will of a sinner that disapproves of God, not his conscience.

We naturally love and admire God as far as our conscience is concerned. God has designed us that way. We naturally approve of the good and disapprove of the bad, as far as our conscience is concerned. But a sinner's will is in opposition to God, what they desire and want is hostile towards God.

Sinners hate God, not with their conscience, but with their will. It is not our conscience that is hostile or at enmity with God, our conscience naturally approves and delights in God. It is the will of man that is hostile or at enmity, the carnal mind (a selfish will).

 2009/10/7 23:17
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Why do I have the feeling that Tony Robins is going to burst onto this thread at any moment?

 2009/10/7 23:26Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Sinners hate God, not with their conscience, but with their will.



I don't buy into your multiple personality theory.

When a sinner hates God, a sinner hates God, and does so wholeheartedly. Just because the law of God is at work on him pointing out his wrongs doesn't change the fact he hates God. His hatred comes from his heart, and his heart loves sin. This is why he needs the new heart and the new mind that only the Holy Spirit can give. In fact, the sinner so hates God that he will sin more and more, so as to make himself callous to God's law.

Unless the Spirit takes away his callous heart of stone and rather, gives him a heart of flesh, he will continue to forever hate God, because sin has made a pervert of him. Man should love God as part of God's creation, but man does not, because man's heart is desperately wicked.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/10/7 23:40Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Ezekiel 36:26-27 Moreover, [u]I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you[/u]; and [u]I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh[/u]. I will put My Spirit within you and [u][b]cause[/b][/u] you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

It takes God to love God.

*edit*

This passage shows a direct correlation between the supernatural regeneration of the Holy Spirit and the ability of man to love God and keep His commandments. Man is dependent upon the act of God that delivers him from a dead spirit and stoney heart so as to "cause" Him to love God and keep His commandments. The spirit of man must be quickened to life and resurrected, and his heart must be radically transformed because it had been radically depraved. Without this, man has no ability to please God. At best, man in his lost and depraved state can feign obedience. But feigned obedience is not the same as a response that issues out of a loving heart.

Feigned obedience might make men more ethical, but it does not make them righteous. Indeed, with feigned obedience, "I" is still on the throne of the heart, and not Christ. But where the supernatural work of regeneration has occured, Christ reigns in love from the heart, and one "naturally" loves God and cherishes His commandments.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/10/8 6:49Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
Quote:

Sinners hate God, not with their conscience, but with their will.

I don't buy into your multiple personality theory.

Isn't that how you read Romans 7?
A man with multiple personalities?
I Love God, but there is another part of me that I hate...

Quote:
When a sinner hates God, a sinner hates God, and does so wholeheartedly.

Our nature comes from what we are, which is human, and that is to mature and to bear fruit.

Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what we [b]love[/b] or what we put our affections on.

The sinner hates God only because they love what God hates.

Quote:
Just because the law of God is at work on him pointing out his wrongs doesn't change the fact he hates God.

Doesn't change the fact loving God is [b]a[/b] natural thing for His creation to do.
The reason that one sins is because he loves the desires which the law has shown to be unlawful more that the ONE who gave the law.

Quote:
His hatred comes from his heart, and his heart loves sin.

Yes, love sin hate God...
....Hate sin love God.

Quote:
This is why he needs the new heart and the new mind that only the Holy Spirit can give.

It's not like a spiritual transplant.

It's that we change our life style and take on a whole new view on life, and have a new motive for everything that we do. In these new aspects of our life will become actions or works that give a testimony of Christ in us.

Quote:
In fact, the sinner so hates God that he will sin more and more, so as to make himself callous to God's law.

That does not apply to all sinners. You can't make a blanket statement like that.

Paul loved God & His law before he was saved.

Quote:
Unless the Spirit takes away his callous heart of stone and rather, gives him a heart of flesh, he will continue to forever hate God,

The Holy Spirit moves men as a "gentleman"; He does not make men with force.
Unless a man is yielded, the Spirit will not have any effect.
The man must give his heart to God for the Holy Spirit to take away his callous heart of stone to give him a heart of flesh.

Quote:
because sin has made a pervert of him.

Actually, it is the other way around.
A man will pervert himself to sin.

Quote:
Man should love God as part of God's creation, but man does not, because man's heart is desperately wicked.

[b]Jeremiah 17:9[/b] [color=990000]supplanting is the heart of a man, frail & unaidable, who shall comprehend it?[/color]

The verse actually means that the heart is always trying to be a replacment; it removes you from the source of true knowledge & it takes the place of that source of truth so that you may rely on it.
You can not aid the heart to make it acceptable, for it is unaidable in that respect.

It was not created for the purpose in which some use it. It is frail, weak as the flesh is, and no one can figure it out.

 2009/10/8 12:41Profile





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