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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Was Jesus Sinful? Luther & Sproul

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I feel like I'm in a colloseum, watching two titans do battle: Achilles vs. Hector; the Merrimac vs. the Monitor; Thor vs. the Midgard Serpent; Logic vs. roaringlamb. The fate of the nations hangs in the balance. The eternal destiny of billions hangs on the definition of "logizomai", or the nounage or verbage of "sin," or whether guilt was "imputed" or "transferred" to Jesus, or whether this "imputation" is a "transferring" or a "deeming," or whether this imputation was an accreditation or a transferal. This is Theological Armageddon. Weak men can only look on in awe and cower under the Thunders of Absolute Intellect.

 2009/10/3 7:47
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494
Mississippi

 Re:

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Weak men can only look on in awe and cower under the Thunders of Absolute Intellect.



I must be weak then....or maybe not, but I look at this discussion in disgust. (EDIT: Opps! I just noticed - he said 'men' and I am a woman! Oh, {{sigh}}.)

I told my husband about this thread the other night and his first reaction was "who was dumb enough to ask such a question?" Admittedly he is not into 'deep theology'- splitting theological hairs is not his thing. After we discussed this issue, he finally said this was a stupid conversation and said "well, this is not the way it was so it is useless to discuss it!" I think he was very wise!

LoinGirder, I love your satire! :-)

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/10/3 9:00Profile









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To Logic:

Did Jesus die for our sin or with our sin?. Was our sin upon Him? Was it within Him? For 3 hours before Christ gave up the Ghost and died FOR US--For 3 hours before that time--between noon and 3:00 P.M. there was darkness over all the earth. God could not even look upon His son because our sin was upon His Son. What was Christ’s response to God? WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME. Why could God not even look upon His Son? Because he bore the sins of the World UPON/WITHIN HIMSELF.

What does the Bible say?

Mark 15:33-38
33. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35. And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
36. And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
37. And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.


Not to worry. Was it on him? Was it in Him? Did He die for me, did He die for you? That is the real question. How we understand it is not. We will all find out the truth when are absent from the body, and present with the Lord, at the end of our days.

God bless,

Walter

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No, Nonsense for saying that Jesus became an ambiguous sin on the cross.
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There was a transfer of guilt from the sinner to the offering. An imputation of the sinner's guilt to the guiltless animal, that is why the hand was laid on the head of the animal.
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There was no "transfer of guilt" to Jesus.
If there was, then Jesus was guilty and deserved to die.
Furthermore, He wouldn't have rose from the grave having guilt.

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Imputation is also seen in the scape goat, as the sins of Israel were "imputed" to it and then it was allowed to go being a symbol of God's removing their sins.
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Imputation is not a "transfer".
Imputation is a "deeming"
We are deemed righteous because Jesus was our sin offering.
Our faith is "deemed" as righteousness just as Abraham's.

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It's not too hard to see.
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The scape goat took the penalty of sin, it did not have sin imputed to it.

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Jesus is not "present in the bread and wine", He is present in our company while we take the bread and wine.
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As far as the communion goes, perhaps you should do some research before you jump to conclusions because Jesus also said, "this IS my body", "this IS my blood"
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It is not His literal body & blood.
It is symbolic.
Jesus is not "present in the bread and wine"

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1 Corinthians 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
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Not Jesus' literal body, but the congregation as the body.

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And still, you have not answered taylor about why one use of the word "sin" is meant "sin offering", while the next one(same word) is not.
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I did answer that question already.
Because it doesn't make sense.
2Co 5:21 For He has made Him who knew no sin offering, to be a sin offering for us...
This makes no sense.

For He has made Him who knew no literal sin , to be a literal sin for us...
This makes no sense either.

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I know why though, it doesn't fit with your view.
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Huh?




 2009/10/3 12:27









 Re:



One last thought. What does the Bible say about the sacrificial system in the Old Testament. Wasn't it a picture, a "type" of the final sacrifice, Jesus Christ, The Messiah, The Seed of the Woman?

The teaching on the Sacrifices of Leviticus



If you were a Jew, living at the time of the Tabernacle, or afterwards at the time of the Temple, all the way to 70 A.D. you were required to perform two sacrifices. The Sin Sacrifice and the Trespass Sacrifice were mandatory. The Sin Sacrifice was a Sacrifice to God for your Sin nature, the Sin originally caused by Adam. The Trespass Sacrifice was for your own sins, that you and your family committed- knowing and unknowingly. The procedure consisted of the Father (the Family Priest) taking the unblemished animal to the Tabernacle or the Temple. The Priest would meet him at the altar and examine the sacrifice, paying no attention to offerer. Everything was focused on the unblemished sacrifice, to be certain that it was worthy.[color=990000][b] Then, the sinner (family Priest) would lay his hands onto the sacrifice, and lean into the sacrifice, becoming one with the sacrifice, and then symbolically he would pass all of his & his family’s sin nature into the sacrifice, and he would then slit it’s throat.

If it was a Trespass Sacrifice, he would go through the same procedure, lay his hands upon the head of the sacrifice, and become one with it, and lean onto it and symbolically pass all of his and his family's committed sins (known and unknown) into the sacrifice (the substiture).[/color][/b]Then, he would slit the throat of the sacrifice. Like it says in Hebrews 5:2- there is no remission (forgiveness) without the shedding of blood "22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.]

Then, the Priest would put the blood on the altar. Next, the sinner would filet (skin) the animal and:
1.for the Sin Sacrifice he would cut out the fat that surrounded the inner organs, plus cutting out the kidneys and the liver and give them to the Priest, who would place them on the altar. They were salted and then burned it to. The rest of the animal, including the skin, was burned outside the camp.

2.For the Trespass-Guilt Sacrifice he would cut out the fat that surrounded the inner organs, plus cutting out the kidneys and the liver and give them to the Priest, who would place them on the altar. They were salted and then burned to smitherens. The rest of the animal, including the skin, was given to the Priest.

Was our sin upon Him, was it within Him?

Maybe all of us should spend more time in the Old Testament?


Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/10/3 12:54





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