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tincture7
Member



Joined: 2009/9/30
Posts: 4


 The Second Coming

My thoughts on the second coming.

it was while I was listening to Brother Nathan's message (whatchmanscry.com) about Aaron’s call to die that my attention was drawn Acts 1:11

"ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven?
This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Suddenly, I saw it in a whole different light.....

First the question from the angels!

Why are you gazing up into heaven?

Haven't we been taught to be looking up into the heavens for his second coming by men?

yet the angels are asking them why are they looking up into heaven?

He is not coming back this way but "THIS SAME JESUS",

Which Jesus?

The one that came in the flesh to be crucified whom everyone recognized? Or, was it the Resurrected Jesus no one recognized who had been given all power and authority in heaven and in earth?

The angels are making a distinction between the two. Christ in the flesh and Christ in the Spirit with power, authority, and glory.

“THIS SAME JESUS” which they were looking at, the same Jesus that no one recognized unless He supernaturally revealed himself was the very same Jesus the angels told them they were going to see returning. He would return in an unrecognizable form, hence the statement “this same Jesus”.

They were showing His return would be in the same power that it took to resurrect Him, not necessarily as a physical person. There will be a great display of God’s power in the second coming of Christ.


Paul said in 2 Cor 5:16 "yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.”

The angels are saying; if you are looking for him after the flesh, to descend from heaven in the flesh, forget it because his second coming will not be like that.

The first and second coming prophecy in Joel says it will be the great and terrible day of the Lord. We now know there is a space in between great and terrible. The great being the first coming and the terrible being the second coming.

The scriptures teach His first coming is as a lamb and His second coming is as a lion?

The first coming is to forgive and save but the second coming is to judge the quick and the dead.

Eph 2:5 “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved.”

2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead AT HIS APPEARING and his kingdom;

Maybe there is a space of time between His appearing and His Kingdom and we are living in that space right now.

If Christ’s first coming took 33 and a half years, wouldn’t it be logical to assume His second coming would take a space of time on the earth as well? In Christ’s first coming only a handful knew or recognized him or were supernaturally shown it was Him.

Matt: 24:37-40

“But as the days of Noe were, so shall also is the coming of the son of man. For as in those days they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. THEN shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

In luke’s account he says,
“there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.”

Remember the great tsunami of 2004 that moved the earth off it's axis?

Did you see the news of the beautiful model sleeping in bed with her boyfriend when the tsumani came and it washed them both away and the wave took his life but spared hers?

And it was a great vacation spot where the people were completely at ease celebrating the birth of Christ. Do you think that was a coincidence?

Rev. 1:7 says, “every eye shall see him…”

Well, every eye watched in disbelief as they beheld the wave of the century take close to a quarter of a million lives.

God has indeed done just as he said he would do in Hebrews 12:26 “Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.”

I would say the earth moving off of its axis would be a fulfillment of this one verse alone.

Something tells me this is just the beginning of His second coming and that we have been in it since 2004 and the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is roaring and upon the earth.

The second coming is upon us….."thy kingdom come thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in Heaven."

It is happening NOW and just as the Lord did not "show" himself and remained hidden for 30 years the wise only knew he was there. Even so the Lord is "revealing" himself to His beloved in this great hour we are living in.

In the first coming the last 3 and a half years of Christ’s ministry on earth were the most effective with a resurrection at the end of it.

If we follow type and pattern then the last 3 and a half years of his second coming will be followed by a resurrection of the people of God known also known as the last trump and the Kingdom of God will be established upon the EARTH.

John 4:29 the woman at the well said, “come see a man..”

The ones who saw Jesus wanted to declare him. I too, want to shout, “come and see a LION, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, He is here and His Kingdom is at the door.

 2009/10/1 8:16Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: The Second Coming

I say this in love, but, all you did was spiritualize words so as to make them meaningless. The second coming will indeed be a physical second coming.

Acts 3:19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/10/1 8:38Profile









 Re: The Second Coming

It may be in your best interest to clarify everything that you have said, lest the "dogma killers" come in and condemn you and condemn your post. Make it a bit more clearer for these guys so that you don't sound like your stepping away from what they perceive to be true Christian Orthodoxy.

I for one enjoyed what you have written, very good thoughts, enjoyed reading it. But not everyone will share your views, so get ready for a flood of condemnation from other posters saying, "your wrong, "Your in error" and "your preaching another gospel".

I hope you share more on this line, sounds illuminating.

 2009/10/1 8:57









 Re:



To DeepThinker, tincture7, and all others who do not believe in the physical return of the resurrected Jesus Christ, but rather a warm and fuzzy "spiritual" return:

(I posted this previously to Lysa on a DT thread, but it applies here, on this thread, because of the identical subject matter)

If there is no physical resurrection of the dead (like Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead), then the following verse in red still applies to you and all of those that have that same belief:

(1 Cor 15:13-17)
13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17. And if Christ be not raised,. your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

It's a very simple verse. It gives a single condition: "If the dead are not raised" So, if you DO NOT TAKE THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD LITERALLY, then the following statement "the dead are not raised" is TRUE.

So, if the single condition is TRUE, then the RESULT is: "then Christ has not been raised either".

This is what computer programmers refer to as an "IF....THEN statement".

and the verse follows that if the CONDITION "if Christ has not been raised", THEN the result:[color=990000][b] "your faith is futile (in vain) and you are still in your sins"[/color][/b]

Obvioisly, Paul spent the entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians addressing those who didn't/don't believe that the resurrection of the dead is a physical (literal) resurrection, and not a spiritual one.

[color=990000][b]Those that teach others that the resurrection of the dead is not a literal event, but a spiritual event, then they are false teachers.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ..." (2 Pet. 2:1) [/color][/b]

False teachers that teach this lie are guilty of heresy. Are heretics going to heaven? They believe in Jesus, you say. Sure, but so does Satan!

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:


Lysa posted on the DT Thread about the physical resurrection of the dead as follows:

[color=0009ff][b]Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
To say that "Jesus is not coming again and there will be no Resurrection of the dead & those who remain alive" is now 'Alright' with this many people here?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know what the Bible says about Rev 22.18,19 and no where even in the condemning parts (with the liars), does it say "if you do not believe such and such about the end-times, you will have no part in the holy city."

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To say that "Jesus is not coming again and there will be no Resurrection of the dead & those who remain alive" is now 'Alright' with this many people here?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LYSA POSTS:

Is that quote part of what Jesus said a person has to believe to be born-again? If it is not, then I ask you gently and lovingly because we are friends... could it be you who is "adding unto these things"?

I do not know every detail of what DT believes about the end-times, but I know that according to Rev 22.15, not believing this does not make him a dog, sorcerer, whoremonger, murderer, idolater, or a liar (well, this one you might agree with but it's not what you or I believe that condemns a person, it's what Christ believes and knows about that person).

According to God, what exactly is a dog? A sorcerer? A whoremonger? A murderer? An idolator? A liar? I'm not a 100% sure but pretty sure that they do not include not believing in the resurrection just like you believe in it.

Jesus-is-Lord, I value your friendship but I also value the word of God that speaks on believing in Christ and loving one another. Above all, keep your love for one another at full strength, since love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4.8

I'm sure DT doesn't want your prayers in the state you guys are in; but can you not have an attitude of prayer towards people you believe to be THAT wrong? Because technically, if you are walking in Christ and pleasing Christ; He said ask what you will and you will receive it. Can you not rest in praying that and believing that for a brother? Or have you not yet prayed for him in redeeming love?

God bless[/color][/b]



 2009/10/1 10:56
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

I would highly commend to everybody the teachings of Art Katz on issues regarding the last days. His sermons are spot on, deeply insightful, and prophetic. After listenig to him and carefully weighing his messages, and diligently studying the Scriptures, he evaporated once and for all a lot of the spiritualized notions I had in regard to Bible prophecy. He showed me the reason I ultimately rejected a literal interpretation of the Scriptures is because there was a latent anti-semitism in my flesh that recoiled at the idea of God literally fulfilling the kingdom promises made to the the fathers, beginning with Abraham.

And there are some trappings to such spiritualized interpretations, that appeal to man, ultimately in his ignorance and arrogance.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/10/1 11:08Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3420
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: The Second Coming - waltern

Quote:
Waltern wrote :
(I posted this previously to Lysa on a DT thread, but it applies here, on this thread, because of the identical subject matter)

If there is no physical resurrection of the dead (like Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead), then the following verse in red still applies to you and all of those that have that same belief:


Waltern,

I do not know why you INSIST that I do not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, [b]WHEN I DO[/b]. I have made it abundantly clear that I disagree with DeepThinker in this area.

Why do you insist of including me with amillennialists?


_________________
Lisa

 2009/10/1 11:15Profile









 Re: The Second Coming

tincture7,

Are you saying that this is what this man is teaching?

You should discuss this with this man you've named, else wise, it could appear that you are saying this somehow came from him, else, Why name him?

 2009/10/1 11:51









 Re:



To Lysa:

Please re-read my post. I have clarified it by quoting what you posted in regards to the unbelief in the physical resurrection of the dead, and what the Bible has to say about those that believe in this heresy.

Christ tells us Himself in His own Word about those that travel the broad way and enter at the wide gate. It is a narrow way and a straight gate that leads to eternal life, and few there are that find it:

Matthew 7:13-15
13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

The liberal Christian is always trying to widen the Gate, and broaden the way that leads to eternal life, so that all can be saved. The problem is, God's Word is in opposition to their "opinions" and their "efforts" to make room in heaven for everyone other than the elect.

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Lysa wrote:
Quote:
Waltern wrote :
(I posted this previously to Lysa on a DT thread, but it applies here, on this thread, because of the identical subject matter)

If there is no physical resurrection of the dead (like Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead), then the following verse in red still applies to you and all of those that have that same belief:


Waltern,

I do not know why you INSIST that I do not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, [b]WHEN I DO[/b]. I have made it abundantly clear that I disagree with DeepThinker in this area.

Why do you insist of including me with amillennialists?

 2009/10/1 12:05









 Re:

Quote:
Waltern, I do not know why you INSIST that I do not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, WHEN I DO. I have made it abundantly clear that I disagree with DeepThinker in this area.

Lysa, you may have to curse me in public and denounce that you've even had any dealings with me, otherwise Walter will dog you from post to post.

You've PM'd me several times to tell me that you agree with Walter on a the physical return of Christ. It must be the fact that you've associated yourself with me (a heretic) that bothers him. Otherwise, he is just being childish.

Since your words haven't convinced him, perhaps prayer will.


15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in Cheap clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. He is warning you of me Lysa (wink wink) just in case you didn't get that. ;-)

 2009/10/1 17:05
elharris
Member



Joined: 2009/8/10
Posts: 59


 Re: The Second Coming

Quote:
Deepthinker: I for one enjoyed what you have written, very good thoughts, enjoyed reading it. But not everyone will share your views, so get ready for a flood of condemnation from other posters saying, "your wrong, "Your in error" and "your preaching another gospel".

I hope you share more on this line, sounds [b]illuminating.[/b]


Tincture7:
Suddenly, I saw it in a whole different light.....




Well, I do not think you are PEACHING ANOTHER GOSPEL. And even if you were actually preaching another gospel, it wouldn't be another, because I have heard this one before.

From the sounds of your post, these are just some things you've been "thinking" about. And are not fully persuaded of, as yet. You say, "MAYBE' it's this way et....


I am totally with you in what you said about Jesus coming back with power and authority et.

Your post is more of a "maybe it's this way".

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!


I was with you on some of what you said; But not in the conclusion you came to which stated he had already "appeared" and we are now waiting for his "kingdom". And that there is like a big space in there.

You stated:
Quote:
"ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven?
This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Suddenly, I saw it in a whole different light.....

First the question from the angels!

Why are you gazing up into heaven?

[b]Haven't we been taught to be looking up into the heavens for his second coming by men?[/b]




No, this teaching [b]is not by men.[/b] It's taught all over and throughout the Written Word.


Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Isa 13:10 Matt 24:29 Mark 13:25

Luke 21:27 [b]And then shall they see the Son of man COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
Dan 7:13 Matt 24:30 Mark 13:26

Luke 21:28 [b]And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.[/b]

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 [b]So likewise ye, WHEN YOU SEE THESE THINGS COME TO PASS, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.[/b]

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation (THAT IS ALIVE AT THE TIME, WHEN THIS EVENT TAKES PLACE) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


These things have not come to pass in succession and exactly as he said they would. Plus he said [b]EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, not just believers, in a "spiritual" appearing of sorts.[/b] Other records state they will be looking for a rock to hide under. Meanwhile those who had the true hope of his apprearing, will be standing literally looking UP. Why UP? Why look UP? Because he will be revealed FROM HEAVEN to EVERYONE.

What did the angels say? This same Jesus shall so come [b]in LIKE MANNER as you have SEEN him go.[/b] How did he go?

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, [b]while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.[/b]


It says he will come in the clouds many times in scripture.

Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? [b]this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.[/b]

They are just bascially repeating what he already taught.


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, [b]and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[/b]

2 Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, [b]Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.[/b]

3 Mark 13:26 [b]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[/b]

4 Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: [b]and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.[/b]

5 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them [b]in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:[/b] and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, [b]he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him[/b], and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Of course the word "cloud or clouds" is not always used. But a good study is to go through all the verses that use the Greek words parousia and apokolipsis. Both words are used to describe his "coming".



PAROUSIA

Matt 24:3. what shall be the sing of they COMING...

Matt 24:27 so shall also the COMING of the son of man be...

Matt 24:37 so shall also the COMING of the Son...

1 Cor 15:23 they that are Christ's at his COMING...

1 Cor 16:17 glad of the COMING of Stephanas....

2 Cor 7:6 by the COMING of Titus;
2 Cor 7:7 And not by his COMING only...

2 Cor 10:10 but his bodily PRESENCE is weak...

Phil 1:26 by my COMING to you again.

Phil 2:12 not as in my PRESENCE only...

1 Thes 2:19 Christ at this COMING?

1 Thes 3:13 at the COMING of our Lord Jesus ...

1 Thes 4:15 and remain unto the COMING of....

1 Thes 5:23 unto the COMING of our Lord...

2 Thes 2:1 by the COMING of our Lord...

2 Thes 2:8 the brightness of his COMING...

2 Thes 2:9 even him, whose COMING (PAROUSIA), is after Satan....

(How about that, the man of sin and the Son of man both have a "parousia".)


Jas 5:7 unto the COMING of the Lord.

Jas 5:8 For the COMING of the Lord draweth nigh...


(obviously he hadn't "come" to them yet. Had not "appeared" to them. So then WHEN did this special appreating start taking place?")


2 Peter 1:16 for the power and the COMING of our Lord...

2 Peter 3:4 Where is the promise of his COMING?

2 Peter 3:12 and hasting unto the COMING of the day...

1 John 2:28 before him at his COMING...

Again in all of these verses, the word PAROUSIA is used (and there are NUMEROUS Greek words translated "come".) This word signigifes the personal (as a person) presence of.



Then there is the word apokalupsis and apokalupto, which in these verses I have only refered to the ones dealing with his coming in the sense that the word parousia is used above.


APOKALUPTO

Luke 17:30 when the son of man shall be REVEALED...

Rom 1:18 the wrath of God is REVEALED from...

1 Cor 3:13 becasue it shall be REVEALED by fire...

2 Thes 2:3 that the man of sin be REVEALED...

2 Thes 2:6 that he might be REVEALED in his time...

2 Thes 2:8 then shall that wicked be REVEALED,...

(Interesting don't you think that the "man of sin" also had a PAROUSIA AND AN APOKALUPTO"...HUM, now that's something to think about.)


1 Peter 1:5 ready to be REVEALED in the last...



APOKALUPSIS

1 Cor 1:7 waiting for the COMING or our Lord Jesus Christ...

2 Thes 1:7 when the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven....

1 Peter 1:7 gory at the APPEARING of jesus...

1 Peter 1:13 at the REVELATON of jesus Christ;...

1 Peter 4:13 when his glory shall be REVEALED,...

Rev. 1:1 The REVELATION of Jesus Christ,...


Before ye get on yer high horse on that last verse, remember that John was in the spirit, thatis having a vision of "The Day of the Lord", also called "The Lord's Day". The things that he is revealing to John will quickly come to pass on "The Lords' day". In other words they will not be long and drawn out over centuries. But will take place BAM, BAM, BAM...et.



Take note that both the Son of man, and the Son of perdition have a apokalupsis and a parousia. With it seems (and I could be in error) the Son of perdition's coming and appearing being FIRST.


In fact in thinking about it, this could be the "appearing" that you are really seeing. People thinking the Lord is not coming inperson but in "them", hence little chist's, little gods.
Because what you have mentioned here, many have for some time through Chrisian history believed to one degree or another.



Would not it seem that a false understanding of his revelation, his coming, his appearing, his presence, would lead to the Son of Perdition being mitaken by many as the Son of God?


Many OVER SIMPLIFY, these events, leaving out many details. Leading to what Peter described as:


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Isa 65:17, 66:22

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (good thing too, because God is not willing that any of us should perrish but that all of us have the chance to come to a knowledge of the truth.)

16 [b]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD, WHICH THEY THAT ARE UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE WREST, AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of THE WICKED, fall from your own stedfastness.[/b]

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


It's obvious that many of us are unlearend and unestablished in the truth. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, as everyone has to learn. And EVEN aged preachers, preach error.


But we should be ever careful and take heed as to what we preach as "the truth". It's OK to have "ideas" and "thoughts". It's even OK to be wrong or draw a wrong conclusion. As long as you don't love your "conclusions", more than you love the written word.


You don't want to be led away with the error of the wicked. Those who are unlearned and unstable in the original truth (NOT ORTHODOXY, which does not always hold the truth and propounds many errors on it's own.)...those (meaning really most of us to one degree or another) who are unlearned and unstable tend to twist the meaning of scripture, in one area or another.


Some things you just better put on the shelf, until you know for sure, before you pick and choose a verses of scripture to back up a personal idea. Not to, is to treat the written word as "common", meaning just like any old book, that you can play around with.

And of course I need to take heed to this myself.

Regards,
El Harris

 2009/10/1 18:18Profile





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