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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are prophets in the New Testament different from prophets in the Old Testament?

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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

An interesting note from the old testament. I was a bit off in what I remembered. If a prophet spoke in God's name when the message is not from God, or if a prophet spoke in the name of other god's, that prophet was to be put to death. However, if a prophet's words do not come to pass as spoken then the people are to understand that the prophet has spoken out of his own self (Deut. calls it pride or presumption) and the people are not to fear those words. So even in the OT, there seems to be a distinction between false prophets and prophets who missed it.

Deu 18:20-22
(20) But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, that which I have not commanded him to speak, and who speaks in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
(21) And if you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah has not spoken?
(22) When a prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah, if the thing does not happen or come about, that is the thing which Jehovah has not spoken; that prophet has spoken it proudly; you shall not be afraid of him.

Frank: All equipping ministries being equal (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher), did not Paul disqualify himself from his own apostolic office every time he wrote, "Paul an apostle unto the churches at..."? Is is really evil to acknowledge the gifts and callings that God has given you?

I guess I also define the 9 gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Cor. 2 a bit differently. Word of knowledge is a supernatural knowing of information that you could not have known without the quickening of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:37-38 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; (38) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Although He was fully God and did not lose that identity, Jesus did all that He did on this earth as a man, having emptied himself of the divine ability and having been filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus operated in the word of knowledge when He supernaturally knew the woman at the well had five husbands previously and the man she was with now was not her husband. Some would disagree, probably vehemently, with this and say that Jesus retained all divine ability. I guess I take the scripture literally. When the woman with the issue of blood touched Jesus and he asked, "who touched me?", it was because HE felt virtue go out of Himself, but legitimately did not know who touched Him. i.e., it was not a rhetorical question.

Word of wisdom is a supernatural knowing of what to do in a situation. Prophecy is a supernatural speaking forth of the Word of God in due season. This can take the form of the Holy Spirit quickening to us scripture that needs to be publicly shared, or a word of exhortation, edification, or comfort in due season. This word is always supernatural in timing and in prompting if it is truly prophecy.

The ministry gift of a prophet is a bit different. All prophets prophecy, but operating in prophecy does not make one a prophet. Prophet is a life calling and it is not up to the prophet to decide if he or she is one or isn't. The only role the five fold plays in the thing is in surrendering to the Lord and choosing to walk in the calling already on their life.

So I see a huge distinction between 1 Cor. 12 prophecy and Ephesians 4 prophets. The bulk of an OT prophet's ministry was the foretelling of future events. That can happen with NT prophets, but is the exception, not the rule. The bulk of a NT prophets ministry deals teaching the body of Christ to properly relate to the prophetic moving of the Holy Spirit among the body. Since the coming of the Holy Spirit at pentecost, believers can now hear God directly themselves. We have access to God directly through the atonement of the blood of Jesus Christ that OT people did not have. One would expect the prophetic gifts (word of knowledge...) to operate in the NT church quite often as a result. If I, as a believer, am given a word of prophecy for the body and if I, in zeal, go beyond what God has given me, what is to be done with me?

Now, I also understand that those whom God has placed in leadership are held to a much higher standard. If a NT prophet speaks a word from God but in zeal goes a bit beyond, how are we now to relate to that prophet?


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Travis

 2009/9/27 9:35Profile









 Re:


Do fully agree that Eph 4 lists the "ministerial gifts" as a life-long "calling" - whereas 1 Corth 12 and Romans 12 are the gifts that He can manifest through any Member of His Body - "as He wills" or whenever He chooses to.


With all that's been said so far - I am still asking - How does one know if a person is a prophet?

 2009/9/27 12:47
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3420
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Are prophets in the New Testament different from prophets in the Old Testament?

I can think of four things to add to know if someone is a prophet...

James 5.12, "Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay."

Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 14.24-25; "the secrets of their heart would be made manifest."

Matthew 7.16 & 7.20, Jesus stated, "By their fruits you shall know them."

Finally, in John 1.45-51 Philip told Nathanael, "We have found him..." Jesus said to Nanthanael, "Behold an Israelite in whom there is no guile" and Nathanael said back to him, "How do you know me?" (He didn't act all humble and argue with him, "No, I have no guile" and expect Jesus to argue back and say, "Oh yes, you do!" No, he said, "How do you know me?")

That was Jesus' #1 truth that he spoke to Nathanael and the 2nd was, "Before Philip called to you, I saw you under the fig tree." It doesn't say where Philip found Nathanael, but Nathanael knew that he was under a fig tree BEFORE Philip called to him.

Two simple truths Jesus spoke to Nathanael and [b]he knew[/b] that Jesus was the Son of God. Yet people who believe they're prophets go around trying to convince others of their calling. "[i]It's not he who man recommends himself but it's who GOD recommends[/i]", (?).

According to this standard of Jesus' above, I dare say out of ALL the prophets (self-appointed and otherwise), that only about [b]1/10th[/b] are actually true prophets today.


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Lisa

 2009/9/27 13:22Profile









 Re:


Joh 16:13, 14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: [b]for he shall not speak of himself[/b]; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [b]He shall glorify me[/b]: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

I'll just give you my opinion. To the degree that the person points to GOD Alone and not self and is filled with what we see above in these passages - they will lead the people BACK to The One True GOD. To depend wholly on Him and not on a person. They will point the people to the verses above and others like them. They're driven to produce the fear and love of GOD at the same time. A GOD given balance of the mercy and judgment of GOD. Their [i]cause[/i] is the same as their LORD's as seen in Joh 18:37 [i]"To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." [/i] The Same 'cause' of the verses above in John 16:13 about 'His' Spirit.
They uncover truth that's been hidden or distorted over the years. They are not much different than the O.T. prophets at all - except rather than writing Scripture - they promote & push 'The WORD', for one reason, because Jesus [i]is[/i] The Word of GOD and nothing on earth is more important than The Word of GOD. He magnifies His Word above His Name.
Yes, as in John 16:13 - He does show things to come and accuracy should still be a requirement.
Those two passages from John combined, shows us what the mission of "GOD with us" is. Whether it be doctrinal truth or discerning 'truth' in a general sense. Four times GOD calls the Spirit of Christ, The Spirit of Truth and desiring to see truth in the inward parts is contained within that as well - remember Ananias and Sapphira.
We see Isaiah saying "Comfort ye my people" and in other places speaking of judgment - but I believe one pastor summed it up very well when he said, "prophets point to Jesus".


I agree with the opening post that Art Katz was one of the few. I held back saying that for a reason. Art could get pretty rough and bold at times but his humility still shined through.
He restored the truth about Israel and exposed false teachings and like Paul, was ready to give his life for the people. He saw through people in an audience, individually and said things as he saw them. He gave ALL Glory to GOD. He didn't have a big following and had many who would have loved to see him gone. Unfortunately he is - but not really. He's still here with the others who's sermons are on this site. :-)


With all the counterfeit phenomena going on now that Jesus warned about, with the self-glorifying-crowd, as Jesus warned, I do believe this was/is a very important thread and recommend Ezekiel 13 to go along with it.
Thank you for starting this important topic.

 2009/9/27 14:15
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

I must agree that this is an important topic and one of very few that have piqued my interest of late.

Quote:
Jesus-is-GOD wrote: I agree with the opening post that Art Katz was one of the few. I held back saying that for a reason.



If you have not read Art Katz’ book The Spirit of Truth, I highly recommend it, if for no other reason than the emphasis that he puts upon the necessity for the “prophet” to be his message. Anyone can speak words of “truth”, but just as surely as the Old Testament prophets were themselves the message, I believe that requirement has certainly not lessened under the New Covenant, especially in view of the fact that we claim to have with us/in us the Holy Spirit (1 John 5:6b το πνευμα εστιν η αληθεια “the Spirit is the Truth”).

Being the truth of the message weeds out a lot of speakers, and not just those who claim to be prophets. It requires being pliable in the hands of God and willingly suffering whatever has to be suffered in order for the life testimony to verify the words of the mouth, but being as adamant as flint in the face of the criticism of men. That was the test for Elijah, and Micaiah, and Jeremiah, and Hosea, and so many more. They “became” the emblem of their prophetic word. And that was certainly true of Paul and of Peter, and no doubt many more in the New Testament.

How do we know? The Spirit bears witness, no doubt, but there is implied in the quotes from Deuteronomy that there has to be credibility over time also. If a deacon had to be given time to prove himself, how much more these other roles? And if in Old Testament times, the prophet was not recognized as a prophet until it was time to garnish his tomb, I believe many or most times, that same is true today… hence Sermon Index!

1 Kings 17:23-24 (NKJV)
23 And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house, and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, "See, your son lives!" 24 Then the woman said to Elijah, "Now by this I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is the truth."

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2009/9/27 16:44Profile









 Re:

Good post Brother Clint. Surely do agree with you about [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29097&forum=40&5]Art's book.[/url] and the fact that SermonIndex carries his series & messages both in text and audio, but not just for prophets. He speaks to us all in all of his messages.


Quote:
Being the truth of the message weeds out a lot of speakers, and not just those who claim to be prophets. It requires being pliable in the hands of God and willingly suffering whatever has to be suffered in order for the life testimony to verify the words of the mouth, but being as adamant as flint in the face of the criticism of men.



I'm thinking, this also will apply to us all at some time in the not too distant future, as it does to our Brethren in persecuting countries right now.

Quote:
If a deacon had to be given time to prove himself, how much more these other roles? And if in Old Testament times, the prophet was not recognized as a prophet until it was time to garnish his tomb, I believe many or most times, that same is true today… hence Sermon Index!



Amen about the deacons, etc..

Happy your interest was piqued as well and you've added to the thread.

Jeremiah 28 is also very interesting in context of this discussion.

 2009/9/27 20:11
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

A prophet is also called a "seer" - one who sees clearly the message and the will of God in His Word and through His Spirit. Although all believers are expected to find God's will in scripture and through prayer, prophets are specially enabled by God to do this much more effectively than others. Prophecy is a gift of God to be practiced for the benefit of mankind, both believers and unbelievers.

As for expectations, we should expect prophets, like all true believers, to be faithful in their walk, beyond reproach in their lives, and to be holy just as God is holy; and through their faithfulness, we expect their prophecies to be true. Can they be mistaken? Yes, just as all believers can be mistaken.

How then will we recognize them as true prophets of God? By their fruit, and through the truth in Scripture. Unfortunately, only true believers will have the spiritual guidance needed to discern the truth. So we can expect that true prophets will have a fewer followers (narrow gate) than false prophets (wide gate).

[i]2Pe 1:20-21 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.[/i]

If I were asked to identify a modern day prophet, I would point to Paul Washer. He sees clearly and speaks truth. And many in the established "Christian" religions hate him for it.

 2009/9/28 16:44Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
With all that's been said so far - I am still asking - How does one know if a person is a prophet?



Calling is by God and on a person's life from birth. I believe that if I am following God, He will eventually reveal that calling to me. There is a preparation time that follows, often a great number of years, before I am ready to step into the fullness of that calling. In the NT, existing leadership (Apostles, prophets, etc.) recognized what God was doing in a person's life, saw the fruit and maturity of the calling coming, and then ordained (set apart for that ministry) the person that was called.

I believe we can see the calling on those we are intimately connected with in the body. Hence the necessity of knowing those who labor among us. Ordination is no light thing to be doled out upon completion of a course of study at a Bible college or upon the earning of a degree. The Bible says to lay hands suddenly on no man (speaking of ordination and the activation of ministry by the laying on of hands).

I am still not real clear on the consensus about there being any difference between OT prophets and NT prophets. An ancillary question that seems to have arisen is this. Are NT prophets held to any different level of accountability than NT pastors, teachers, apostles, and prophets? Any thoughts?


_________________
Travis

 2009/9/28 18:36Profile









 Re:

Thank you for your thoughtful answer Brother.

Regarding this last question - [i]Are NT prophets held to any different level of accountability than NT pastors, teachers, apostles, and prophets?[/i]

From what I've been taught, Paul listed these in the order that he did in Eph 4 as sort of a chain of command, for a lack of a better term - so I think the answer would be yes.

I'm not one for heiracrchy, but there is some sense in this being so.

 2009/9/28 19:19
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
From what I've been taught, Paul listed these in the order that he did in Eph 4 as sort of a chain of command, for a lack of a better term - so I think the answer would be yes. I'm not one for heiracrchy, but there is some sense in this being so.



I am not totally sure I see that. If that truly were the case, surely we would have this hierarchical relationship demonstrated at other places in scripture. The only thing I can think of to support that would be the fact that the church was built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets listed later in Eph. 4.

If scripturally the NT prophet is held to a different level of accountability (or perhaps accuracy) than the other four equipping ministries, what does this difference look like? What prompted my initial question is that I can see substantial differences in the way the office (I use that term loosely, but don't have a better one) functions under the old and new covenants.


_________________
Travis

 2009/9/28 19:30Profile





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