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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Are prophets in the New Testament different from prophets in the Old Testament?

In the OT we find that prophets were held to a standard of 100% accuracy. This is quite remarkable seeing that what a prophet speaks, although it is the anointed word of God, is filtered through a fallible mind before it is spoken out of a fallible mouth. Obviously the function of the OT prophet was different, and maybe this accounts for the standard of 100% accuracy. OT prophets primarily foretold future events. What they had to speak was extremely important as it established OT scripture. Perhaps there was a miraculous undergirding of their minds and mouths by God to assure that they spoke with 100% accuracy.

I find some interesting things in the NT that seem to lead to the idea that this standard of 100% infallibility does not exist under the new covenant. Here are some scriptures to consider.

Act 20:22
(22) And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

Paul was bound in the Spirit to go to Jerusalem. God spoke specifically to him to go there.

Act 21:4
(4) And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.


Act 21:10-14
(10) And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
(11) And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
(12) And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.
(13) Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
(14) And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done.

The believers at Tyre prophesied by the Spirit that Paul should not go to Jerusalem. Agabus the prophet also prophesied that Paul should not go.

Yet, Paul went. The thing to consider is this. Who missed it? Did Paul, did the disciples at Tyre, did Agabus? No one was denounced in scripture as being a false prophet. Paul, the disciples at Tyre, as well as Agabus are portrayed as legitimate, but the word God spoke to Paul and the words that came through the others seem to conflict.

In these same scriptures notice that Agabus said that the Jews would arrest Paul, bind him, and then deliver him to the Romans. This is not how it happened. Look at Act 21:30-35

(30) And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
(31) And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.
(32) Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul.
(33) Then the chief captain came near, and took him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains; and demanded who he was, and what he had done.
(34) And some cried one thing, some another, among the multitude: and when he could not know the certainty for the tumult, he commanded him to be carried into the castle.
(35) And when he came upon the stairs, so it was, that he was borne of the soldiers for the violence of the people.

Paul was not bound and delivered by the Jews. He was rescued by the Romans as the Jews were wanting to kill him.

So, Agabus' prophecy was less than 100% accurate. However, we never see Agabus denounced as a false prophet. We do see other's in the NT denounced as false, but not him.

In 1 Corinthians 14:29 Paul tells us to judge words of prophecy. What are we judging, the prophet, or the prophecy? If a prophecy comes forth that is not 100% accurate we are not told to cast the speaker out as false. Just to judge the words.

1Th 5:19-21
(19) Quench not the Spirit.
(20) Despise not prophesyings.
(21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

These verses suggest again that prophesying is to be active in the modern church, and that we are to judge and hold fast to the good.

So, do you think that NT prophecy is held to the same standard as OT prophecy? Is there grace for the prophet who speaks a word that does not have 100% accuracy? Remember that under the law one infraction was damning and according to strict interpretation often resulted in immediate physical death. Remember the first guy who made the mistake of picking up sticks for a fire on the sabbath? They enforced the law by stoning him to death. The standard under the law was perfection or nothing. But under the new covenant? 1 John 1:9 was written to believers, not unbelievers. God knew we could not keep the standard of perfection demanded by the law which, by the way, was only a shadow of the TRUE standard of Holiness that God IS. He offered to us reconciliation through His Son Jesus Christ. WHEN we do blow it, we have an advocate, we can confess our sins, and we continue to walk in His forgiveness and grace, cleansed of that sin. Is a prophetic word of less than 100% accuracy any different under the NT?

Interested in what you all think.


_________________
Travis

 2009/9/26 18:07Profile









 Re: Are prophets in the New Testament different from prophets in the Old Testament?

Vs 33 shows that Agabus was not off.

Paul was being tested and he passed the test.

If you open the door to this non-100% accuracy - I suppose I needn't say what will come of it or actually, what 'has' become of this belief.

Jesus Christ - The Same, Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow.

1Pe 1:10- Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time [b]the Spirit of Christ which was in them[/b] did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


If this verse from John is for All Sheep that hear His Voice and follow and won't follow another - how much more so for a "prophet"?

Even the more so now should we expect accuracy for Jesus warned more about false prophets in these last days than any one event.

The internet is filled with them, that use this reasoning that you've posted. I mean no harm by that at all - it's just an open door to what we're seeing so much of now and brings discredit to the Spirit of Truth, also called The Spirit of Christ - which is our GOD's Voice.

It brings discredit to Christianity as a whole when True Prophecy would prove that He is Real.

So many are running to and fro seeking knowledge.
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Every forum I view, there are dreams, visions, words and News reports and the people are chasing after these to get a true word of what will happen next - proving out this verse from Daniel... but imagine if there were a clear clarion call from the Spirit of Truth - it would convince the non-believers of John 16:13 and that Jesus is Real.

But sadly to say - we've allowed the 100% accuracy of the Spirit of Truth criteria to go in this generation.


I pray I worded this properly enough and with respect.

 2009/9/26 19:22
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

An excellent answer Jesus-is-GOD, but to clarify the accuracy of Agabus’ prophecy a little further for the first post: if you read the whole context, you find that his prophecy was precisely on. Acts 21:27-28 (NKJV)
27 Now when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and [b]laid hands on him[/b], 28 crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place." The word in question here is “bind” from the Greek δέω a primary verb; to bind (in various applications, literal or figurative) : bind, be in bonds, knit, tie, wind… 44 times in NT with various translations. The bottom line is that they bound him whether with ropes, chains or their bare hands until he reached the place where he was received/rescued by the Romans, and led away bound in chains. Whether it was what they intended or not, is coincidental, the prophecy is 100% accurate because that is precisely the result of their action, i.e. He was turned over to the Romans.
As for the 100% accuracy of Old Testament prophecies, we have faith that they will all be fulfilled with that accuracy (some are waiting that fulfillment) but that does not imply at all that all of them are to be taken literally, because there is much symbolism and allusions, alliteration and so forth that will prove 100% accurate when properly translated and interpreted. If it were left up to many, there would be multiple “less than 100%” accuracies there, but only because of our ignorance, and not because of the failure of the Spirit of Truth to convey precisely what He intended whether plainly or shrouded in mystery according to His Will and purpose.

As for either party in the Acts account “missing it”, neither did. Paul heard their accurate prophecy, just as the Lord gave the accurate prophecy regarding His own arrest and crucifixion and being handed over to the hands of sinners, but Peter protested that arrest, but the Lord set His face steadfastly toward Jerusalem determined to suffer for our sake.
Paul being told what was going to happen was not by any means a prohibition from the Spirit of God to go, but rather a warning regarding what would happen. I could illustrate that in many ways, but I do not believe it is necessary.

What these texts should demonstrate to us all is the precious love of Christ that was in the heart of Paul, that knowing the truth of what he would suffer, was determined to suffer whatever, even to being accursed if it meant the salvation of his brethren the Jews. That certainly was in no way wrong, nor missing the will of God… it was as Luke and the rest said when they reluctantly saw that he was determined, “the will of God be done”… and it was.


Respectfully,

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2009/9/26 20:17Profile









 Re: Are prophets in the New Testament different from prophets in the Old Testament?

Quote:
And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

Paul was determined to go. He is speaking about his own spirit, not the Spirit of God.
Quote:
The believers at Tyre prophesied by the Spirit that Paul should not go to Jerusalem. Agabus the prophet also prophesied that Paul should not go.

Agabus didn't say that Paul should not go up to Jerusalem, it says plainly that,
Quote:
) And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

Who owned the girdle? Paul did.

As for Agabus reputation as a prophet it says that he prophesied concerning a famine that would grip the known world Acts 11:28 which came to pass during the days of Claudius Caeser in which there are testimonies from other historians of the times that did record that such a famine did exist.

Sometimes you have to read between the lines. The whole city was in an uproar, the people were slugging it out, and the Sanhedrin is calling 911. "We got a man down here that is causing trouble and the people are all upset, send someone quick to arrest him."

Even though the Jews didn't put a hand to the cross of Christ yet it was by their own mouths that cried crucify Him. So it is here, it's not important that the Jews put their hands on Paul to arrest him, what is important is that they had a hand in it somehow or another in his arrest and it was at Jerusalem so said the Prophet Agabus. Because when you read further regarding Felix the governor, the Jews were right there to condemn him. It was important that the gentiles be called in on this matter or the Jews would have stoned him.

 2009/9/26 20:40
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

In the OT, prophets were literally speaking forth scripture, the Word of God. You might say they were responsible for establishing canon. In the NT, prophets are definitely NOT speaking any addition to canon. In fact, the established and finished written Word of God is the thing that all prophecy is to be compared to to judge its validity. Prophets today serve in a servant leadership role in the body just as pastors, teachers, apostles, and evangelists do. Prophets serve the body by teaching them how to properly relate the the voice of the Holy Spirit, as well as providing direction and leadership to the body. I would give people like Art Katz as examples of NT prophets. If a called and fully functioning teacher in the body, for example, missed it in some area of scripture, thinking he was accurate, we would have grace for that teacher. We would pray for him, we would possibly bring his error before him in an attitude of humility, but we would not summarily dismiss him as a false teacher. Is the NT attitude toward a prophet the same or do we still hold the OT attitude that one instance of missing it makes the person worthy of dismissal as a false prophet? In the OT, God also used prophets as His chosen mouthpiece because of the people's inability to hear His voice for themselves. I also note there was no indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. We as NT believers all have the responsibility and ability through the Holy Spirit to judge and discern. I too have seen men who claim to speak for God that were, well, flakes! I have also seen genuine men of God who are given a prophetic word, speak the word, but freely acknowledge that there is a possibility that they have missed something due to being human, and encourage the person for whom they have the word to hold it loosely, search the word, and judge it. My question is, do we have the different attitude toward prophets or words of prophecy now than under the law? Do we hold the prophets to a different standard than we hold apostles, evangelists, pastors, teachers, elders, deacons, or members of the body of Christ who operate in the spiritual gift of prophecy?

I am presupposing that it is clear that I am not implying we take any kind of flippant attitude toward prophets or accept whatever comes down the pike. Nor am I implying that we chase after the latest prophets or prophecy. Nor am I implying that we set some arbitrary level of accuracy (say 73.67%) as the threshold of Godly prophecy. And, I am not going anywhere near false prophets which will come in the end drawing men away from God with this question. We are to know those that labor among us, on a very intimate level. I judge all words of prophecy, even by those I know and trust, but I will exercise an extra level of caution if I do not know the person who is giving the prophecy.

Hope that came out right. I am not in any way wanting to debate, just to make sure that you understand what I am asking.

By the way, the attitude toward prophets and those who claim to be in Deut. 13 and 18 is interesting.


_________________
Travis

 2009/9/26 22:01Profile









 Re:

The test of any of the 5 fold ministries is their "fruit" and not what they call themselves.

None of the apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists nor teachers need 'call themselves' such.
In time, it will become apparent what their calling is by their actions and words.

How do we judge any ministry? By the Word of GOD and the truth that comes out from them.

Anyone calling themselves a prophet [or any of the other 4 callings] is up to scrutiny by other prophets and the Body.
How do we "test all things" - as we're told to do, right after we're told to 'despise not prophecying'?



How does one know if a person 'is' a prophet?

I suppose when we can answer that question - we've answered the rest.

 2009/9/26 22:17









 Re:

I felt to add - that to prophecy - as in the 1 Corth 12 gifts does not make one a prophet.

That's probably already known here, but I felt the clarification may be needed along the line.

 2009/9/26 22:24
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4527


 Re:

Hello...

Quote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

How do we judge any ministry? By the Word of GOD and the truth that comes out from them.

Anyone calling themselves a prophet [or any of the other 4 callings] is up to scrutiny by other prophets and the Body.
How do we "test all things" - as we're told to do, right after we're told to 'despise not prophecying'?



I agree. I think that any real prophet would welcome anyone who would try to "test" his words (I Thessalonians 5:21). The Bereans, if we remember, were "more noble" because they searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul (who wrote 2/3 of the New Testament) said was true (Acts 17:11).

Unfortunately, I think that there are many more "FALSE" prophets than "REAL" prophets in the "Church" today. Many of those false prophets are quick to share their "words" (and share them often)...and they are often quite demanding in regard to those who would question the validity of their "words."

It would be great to have prophets like Samuel, whose words "never fell to the ground" (I Samuel 3:19). This world desperately needs truth. In this great plethora of "words" that are spoken by men who would like to be considered "men of God," pure truth is an extremely rare commodity.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2009/9/26 22:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hello...
Quote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:

How do we judge any ministry? By the Word of GOD and the truth that comes out from them.

Anyone calling themselves a prophet [or any of the other 4 callings] is up to scrutiny by other prophets and the Body.
How do we "test all things" - as we're told to do, right after we're told to 'despise not prophecying'?



I agree. I think that any real prophet would welcome anyone who would try to "test" his words (I Thessalonians 5:21). The Bereans, if we remember, were "more noble" because they searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul (who wrote 2/3 of the New Testament) said was true (Acts 17:11).

Unfortunately, I think that there are many more "FALSE" prophets than "REAL" prophets in the "Church" today. Many of those false prophets are quick to share their "words" (and share them often)...and they are often quite demanding in regard to those who would question the validity of their "words."

It would be great to have prophets like Samuel, whose words "never fell to the ground" (I Samuel 3:19). This world desperately needs truth. In this great plethora of "words" that are spoken by men who would like to be considered "men of God," pure truth is an extremely rare commodity.

:-(




Fully agree - which leaves me with the same question for this OP -

How does one know if a person 'is' a prophet?


 2009/9/26 22:47









 Re:

Hi Jesus is God. I believe that if one is a prophet, then what he says will always come to pass. I also believe that by the mere fact that one claims to be a prophet, should almost always disqualify them from being one. I believe that we very rarely find a balanced position on this subject nowadays. Typically on the one had there are the people who just reject everyone, baby out with the bathwater so to speak. Then there are those who accept everything that comes along.

I think we hear the this term more often today "God gave me a word." Many mistake that, in their natural inclination to reject all such supernatural activity, as Prophecy, which of course it is not. Matthew Henry gives his opinion on these gifts which are not prophecy.....

"To one was given the word of wisdom; that is, say some, a knowledge of the mysteries of the gospel, and ability to explain them, an exact understanding of the design, nature, and doctrines, of the Christian religion. Others say an uttering of grave sentences, like Solomon's proverbs. Some confine this word of wisdom to the revelations made to and by the apostles. - To another the word of knowledge, by the same Spirit; that is, say some, the knowledge of mysteries (1Co_2:13): wrapped up in the prophecies, types, and histories of the Old Testament: say others, a skill and readiness to give advice and counsel in perplexed cases."

The truth is of course we do not have a complete definition as the the exact nature and scope of these gifts.............Frank

 2009/9/26 23:08





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