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elharris
Member



Joined: 2009/8/10
Posts: 59


 Re: Did Jesus come already?

Dear Brother,

I can totally relate to what you said, about finding out that you are deceived. I also went through a very long period of what I can only call "UN-learning". And yes it can rip your heart out to find out you have been lied to.

However I also went through another period of realizing that I was in a position of not really knowing the truth. Therefore like you I also sought it and came to many wrong conclusions all on my own.

You can be deceived by others, who as I found out, do not mean to deceive you but have also simply just been deceived. But you can then also in your searh for the truth, and regardless of how deeply you may contemplate and search, often deceive yourself.

Sometimes, we jump to a conclusion of a matter simply because we have not taken ALL of the evidence into consideration. Not because we do this on purpose, but simply because our fact finding and knowledge is incomplete in an area.

I can't tell you how many times, I would be studying and come to a conclusion or think I really saw something, like EURIKA I'VE GOT IT! Be all thrilled with what I thought was a new revelation or understanding, and then later as I kept researching and studying find out I was WRONG as rain. I actually embarassed myself.

What's worse was I also spread my ideas around. But I also found that what I thought was such a great revelation, others had also come up with at one time or another.

You can take the Word and make it into just about anything by drawing a wrong conclusion, by simply over looking a few facts. And AGAIN most people DO NOT do this on purpose and most are sincerely looking for the truth.

Now like you I also believed in the whole pre-trib rapture thing. And also came to believe that was not true.

I believe that EVERY SINGLE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE HAS TO FIT IN CONTEXT WITH EVERY OTHER VERSE FOR A WHOLE AND COMPLETE NOT CONTRADICTORY UNDERSTANDING. And it ultimate comes down to not just context of passage, but context of book with book.

Therefore since I believe that, if I came to a wrong conclusion, another scripture would eventually point that out to me.

Then I would have to RETHINK my whole premise. And so sometimes I would just put things on a shelf for later.

I just became so use to finding things that others had taught me, that were in error, but I also became very use to being wrong myself. Point being I just want the truth no matter what it is and am willing to change my mind accordingly. But you have to believe and understand that you are just as able to deceive yourself.

I do not think God is afraid of you deceiveing yourself, I think it's all a part of learning. Because f you truly have a LOVE FOR THE TRUTH, and you continue in his word, eventually you will correct yourself. Unfortunately what has happened over the years, is men deceive themselves, come up with a false teaching and then teach it to others, start a big denominiation, and then have a very hard time recanting and then the error just keeps going on through their followers.

Now I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture as I once did. And the funny thing was, that many years before I came to the conclusion I was listening to a man on TV, that guy on Shepards Chappel. And he was saying the pre-trib was not true.

I had never even been given or heard of another "option" to the pre-trib rapture, and when I heard him that time, I remember thinking how "full of it" the guy was.

But 4 years later, I was studying and decided to go through every single verse (in context) of the RESURRECTION, and anything to do with being raised from the dead.

It was in that study that I realized the pre-trib rapture was not true. That we were not going to be in a RAPTURE, but that our hope was in THE RESURRECTION. [b]But that "part" of that resurrection was that there would be people alive at the TIME of the RESURRECTION, that would be changed, and caught up without having to die.[/b]

And this aspect of The Resurrection, they take and make into an event OUTSIDE of The Resurrection in and of itself, thus perverting the truth, as well as putting it "before" the tribulation. You see, since they believe they are in a "speical" church, then anything Jesus taught about The Resurrection, does not apply, therefore they can give us a "special rapture" for a "special church", isn't that "special".

We DO NOT look forward or have a hope of a RAPTURE, but of a [b]RESURRECTION of the Just[/b], also called the first resurrection. But a small part of that is that WHEN it takes place, some will be alive and accounted worthy to be caught up with the raised dead.

So YES I can understand what you are saying about the verses in question Matt 16:28 and Luke 9:27.

[b]But if as you say, Jesus has come already, then the resurrection of which he spoke is then PAST ALREADY.[/b]

First before I share that I do not believe this, I will tell you the conclusion I finally came to regarding the verses in question.

You have to realize that Jesus saw SPIRITUALLY. Meaning that he had eyes open into the world of the SPIRIT. Much like the following record.

2 Kings 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: [b]for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.[/b]

17[b] And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, [b]open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.[/b]



[b]The fact is that WE ARE NOT ALONE!

EVER![/b]


Besides the hosts of people we may SEE with our eyes, there is a host of "people" i.e. "angels" and "spirit beings", devils, that we DO NOT SEE!


Jesus came down to be a human being, so that he could be touched with the FEELINGS of our infirmities. One of those "infirmities" is the fact that we can TASTE DEATH. In fact one of the main reasons he came was to deliver those who through all their life time were subject to the FEAR OF DEATH.

Well WHO is and had NEVER BEEN subject to the fear of death?

The answer is ANGELS.


Deamons or devils, or devil spirits which are really just apostate evil angels, have NEVER TASTED, THE FEAR OF DEATH, because they are and always have been immortal.


While Jesus was standing there, he knew that there were more than just PEOPLE, that is "human mortal beings", running the show. He knew that behind the religious leaders who were condemning him and desireing to kill him were principalities and powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, evil spirits in high places of authority in this world, BEHIND what the "mortals" he was talking to were doing.


Literally, there were angels, the devils angels, and most likely the devil himself present.


For as it states: Had the princes of this world, known the mystery, they never would have crucified the Lord of Glory.


This is also why Paul states: Know ye not that we shall judge ANGELS.


And how it is that we do not truly wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities against powers, but against wicked spirits at work in this world.


Hence these beings are REAL and were standing there with in and among the people Jesus was talking to.


Even in this day and time, I know very often that their are devils present and hearding and seeing what we do. I have many times rebuked them and told them to get out of my house.


Here is another lie which we have been taught in religion. This is that Satan has "already", past tence, been cast out of heaven. This is not true, for he still apears before God as our accuser, accusing us night and day, But Jesus is our paraclete our defence attorney on the other side.

Satan will not be cast down out of heaven until The Resurrection of the Just, when Jesus comes and calls forth the dead believers out of their graves, at which time they will receive new immortal bodies fashioned like unto his glorious body, the body of ANGELS. [b]And "some" believers who are alive at that time WILL NEVER TASTE OF DEATH, AT ALL.[/b] For they will be caught up in the air with them, having never died.

But at the same moment that this all takes place, Satan and his angles will also be cast down to the earth, and his place shall no more be found in heaven.

This is big main part of the HOPE OF OUR CALLING.


Now I believe in what is called [b]the law of reversals.[/b] And I see this in the Word all over the place.


In this case the Devil to be cast out of heaven to the earth with his angels must be STRIPPED of many if not all of his angelic powers.


For considder this O man of God, Brother, if we can be like angels, and someday have bodies like theirs, then WHY CANNOT the Lord, with whom anything is possible, condemn them to suffer by manking THEM as mortals.


I believe that as the elect become immortal, he and his followers become perhaps MORTAL. I also beleive that those who are accounted worthy to obtain that FIRST resurrection of the Just, [b]take his place of authority as principalities and powers, but will be rulers of light on this earth, rather than darkness,[/b] when they not long after, he is cast down, return WITH the Lord, to destroy the devil, who with his angels was cast down to the earth, having great wrath, knowing he has BUT A SHORT TIME.


[b]You see a REVERSAL![/b]


When he is cast down to the earth, having been stripped of his immortality, [b]he and his angles, become like men and CAN TASTE DEATH.[/b]


As it was said, if the princes of this world had known this mystery, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. We know that at one point, Jesus cast out a devil, that said "What have we to do with thee Jesus, have you come to torment us BEFORE THE TIME.


Devils or evil angels, knew that their time was numbered. They knew enough of scripture to know they would be tormented. But did they know their killing the Lord of Glory, would result in their immortality being taken, and that they would literally FEEL physical PAIN, and suffering and all the things they have subjected men to for thousands of years, having NO MERCY?


It is a JUST THING with God to recompence tribulation to them who trouble you. How just would it be for US to recompence HIM, that is Satan, and his followers, when we come with Christ to pour out God's wrath on the Beast and his kingdom.


But you see how a great earthquake will take place on the earth with the dead are raised from their graves. And the few living elect will be caught up with them in the clouds. And the devil and his angels thrown down hear to the earth.


And what will the people of the earth do? For the dead have been raised and many who were alive, were being sought and persicuted by them, will have been taken, while all these other supposed FOLKS (devils, evil angles make mortal) show up on the scene.


[b]What an army that will be here on this earth.[/b] Even as "mortals", who could make war with them?


I personally believe, from my own researh and study of the Word, that the beast Satan himself.


And that the wound in the head, means having his angelic power and authority stipped. He is now still in a position of authority, but it's mortal human authority. Kinda puts a different slant to the term "Hell on earth", doesn't it.


You know people compute the number of the beast, and figgure out who he's going to be. But one thing that is always common when they speak of that number is that it's the number of the devil. Well what if it IS the devil.


Look here at what is said of him in the end. You ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO READ THE CONTEXT OF EVERYTHING. And many read this first verse but do not continue to read and see that in the end he will be but like a man.


Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (to the GRAVE to "taste of death.)

16 [b]They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, IS THIS THE MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;[/b]

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 [b]But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.[/b]


I am sorry brother, but I cannot agree with you that the Lord has returned ALREADY. For I know that standing there that day were angels that have yet to be judged, and who were the the originators of all the evil, the men that could be SEEN were perpitrating.

Other have come up with the same idea in their studies, even as far back as the firt century.

2 Tim 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 [b]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already;[/b] and overthrow the faith of some.

AGAIN all believers should learn to read the context. Who were Hymenaeus and Philetus, but believers who were studying the scriptures, and came up with the idea that the Lord had already returned. For, for the resurrection to be PAST already, the Lord would have had to have returned.

Paul said that this doctrine they came up with would eat at the body of Christ like ganegrene, infesting the whole body.

Research Church docternal history, this belief led to Christianity thinking that they were to rule in the name of Christ on earth, with out the King, hince the RCC was born. This is what these kinds of doctrines lead to.

There is not kingdom of God in earth WITHOUT the personal presence of the King.

So all that I have stated here can be shown clearly in many many scriptures in context from Genesis to Revelation, without having to explain away any, or avoid any. That is the only way I finally these days make my mind up on something, by large portions of scripture.

You have to think about and think about deeply, the RAMIFICATIONS that take place when men falsely come to a conclusion that prophecy has come to pass when it has not.

When they do this, then they must also reinterpret everything else in the Word.

Regards,
El Harris

PS Walter, if you make it this far, again I have no problem with copy and paiste. For one thing if it's something you agree with and they said it good, who cares. I do however think that we oten rely too much on others ideas of what they think something means. And in doing so miss out on what God could help us understand from his word.




 2009/9/22 9:29Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494
Mississippi

 Re: Did Jesus come already?

Deep Thinker,

I have not heard any trumpets sounding nor seen anyone that could be identified as Jesus coming in the clouds. And neither did my neighbors. Revelation 1:7.

And neither did I hear the sinners crying for the rocks to fall on them. Revelation 6:15,16

May I suggest you study the book of Revelation. John is detailing a vision he saw and since this is the case try to understand what he saw. Visualize it: see it in your mind and imagination based on the descriptions John shares. Forget about interpreting it, trying to figure it all out. Just see what John is seeing and allow it to minister to your spirit. May I be so bold to suggest that you will find the greatest riches in this approach to the book? I think so. All this wrangling about symbols meaning this and that and another end up looking like an exercise in futility.

BTW, Revelation 1:3 promises a blessing to those who read it...did not promise a blessing to those who fight about it!

My opinion - and I usually have plenty! :-)

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/9/22 9:55Profile
bdcutler
Member



Joined: 2009/9/15
Posts: 22
Mitchell SD

 Re:

Hi elharris,

Interesting interpretation of Matthew 16:28 and Luke 9:27. I don't believe I've ever heard anything quite like the "the law of reversals" before. I agree with your analysis that our hope is in the resurrection, as does Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:12-19:

Quote:

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.



However, I wanted some clarification on something you wrote earlier:

Quote:

It was in that study that I realized the pre-trib rapture was not true. [i]That we were not going to be in a RAPTURE[/i], but that our hope was in THE RESURRECTION. But that part of that resurrection was that there would be people alive at the TIME of the RESURRECTION, that would be changed without having to die. (Emphasis mine.)



Do you rather mean that there is not going to be a rapture before the great tribulation? Because it seems you espouse the doctrine of the rapture here:

elharris wrote:

Quote:

But you see how a great earthquake will take place on the earth with the dead are raised from their graves. And the few living elect will be caught up with them in the clouds.



If you are trying to emphasize that the first resurrection and the rapture are exactly the same thing, then I get what your saying and I agree. It isn't emphasized enough that [i]our hope is in the resurrection[/i], and the rapture and the first resurrection are the same event:

1 Thessalonians 4:16
Quote:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



To this we can agree, when the Lord comes, we'll know it; it won't be a secret coming. Matthew 24:25-31:

Quote:

Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Now, obviously Jesus wasn't being literal, but using imagery to show his disciples what his coming would look like. It's not going to be a secret coming ("Look he's in the secret place!" or "He's in the desert!"), but it will be a coming that all will see.

"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west..." The Greek word for lightning means "lighting", "bright shining", or "shining brightness". I picture the sun coming up in the east, and shining brightly toward the west. When that happens, you can't even look at the sun, and the whole world, knows it's morning (literally, when the sun rises, it's limited to that part of the earth, but you get my point).

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken..." Now, we know that the sun will not literally be darkened (if it were, then life on earth would quickly cease to exist without the radiation of the sun shining), neither will those big burning (as in hydrogen fusion burning) balls of gas that we call "stars" literally fall to the earth (given that even the smallest star is so much larger than the earth, this is impossible). Because of this some will insist that he's speaking in riddles. I don't believe this to be the case, he's showing us that his coming will be a dramatic event and we won’t miss it.

When I point to a child and say "they're bouncing off of the walls," I don't mean that he/she is literally bouncing off of the walls; rather, I'm giving a picture of the hyperactivity the child is displaying. In the same way Jesus is giving a picture of what his coming will be like. It will be an event that will shake the very foundations of the earth (as in spiritually, politically, etc). It won't be missed.


_________________
Benjamin Cutler

 2009/9/22 12:46Profile









 Re:

I'll try to make this short and simple and if this has been addressed then I apologize. Look at what Paul says in 2 Phillipians 2:

16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth.

!They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.!

19Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his,"
...................................

In order for the resurrection to take place Jesus has to return. Paul implies that there is no need to stew over all this for the Lord 'knows who are His'. His foundation is firm and without the constant conjecture that detracts from our relationship with Christ. God will not cause confusion like Hymenaeus and Philetus. The bible says that these guys "wandered away from truth" via their own teaching. We have these kinds of guys today and all throughout history who want to rewrite the scriptures and destroy the faith of those who have hope in Christ and the coming ressurection. They have arrogant interpretations that presume truth and are easily accepted by those who believe that knowledge is in self proclaimed secret places. It spreads like gangrene and it was an obvious problem in Paul's time.

Can we see how the enemy would want those with weak faith to think the resurrection has come? This means that they were left out of God's plan and can now live the way the want.... 'eat and drink for tomorrow we die'. If there's no hope in resurrection then death surely awaits for those so deceived and satan's delusional ploy has worked perfectly.

To me Paul's implication is this: "all you need to know is that the Lord knows who are His and you can rest in this."

He will not leave us as orphans.... He will never leave you nor forsake you. He has sent His Spirit to us in order to testify to what is true. No longer will we need to shout 'know the Lord' for the Holy Spirit will testify of Christ and that we are His. Man will say 'the resurrection has past' and 'come over here, go over there, because Christ is there. No, He's in us, and if He's in us then the perishable will be raised imperishable regardless of when it takes place"

Christ's return will be the one event in history where there will be no doubts as to who is returning and why. It won't go unnoticed nor obscured by man in any way. A loving God will not allow His faithful Son to be mocked in this manner.

 2009/9/22 13:42
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Dear elharris,

Quote:
Hence these beings are REAL and were standing there with in and among the people Jesus was talking to.



Can I say respectfully that your conclusion that Jesus was speaking to angels and the unseen world is just conjecture and speculation. There is nothing in the text to suggest this and no reason for anyone who was present to consider this. Indeed if Matthew or Luke knew this to be so they would have made it clear for us.

However what Matthew does do VERY clearly is in the next verse (next chapter, but there were no chapter divisions in the original) is to say 'Now AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus took Peter, James and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain'. The transfiguration. So SIX DAYS AFTER WHAT? It can only be six days after he had just spoken to them in the previous verses about some not tasting death before seeing His kingdom. So Matthew makes a clear link between these events to show us they are connected, so we can understand what Jesus meant.

So what waltern posted makes sense:
Quote:
Peter, James, and John received a vision of the future kingdom and glory of Christ. They saw Him coming in His kingdom. It was to this event that Peter referred when he said, "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount." (2 Peter 1:16-18).



Now I did not see this at first because of the chapter divisions and in our mind we automatically end what happened at the end of the chapeter and think the next chapter is not connected. But looking at this a fresh it is clearly connected.

Quote:
I believe that as the elect become immortal, he and his followers become perhaps MORTAL. I also beleive that those who are accounted worthy to obtain that FIRST resurrection of the Just, take his place of authority as principalities and powers, but will be rulers of light on this earth, rather than darkness, when they not long after, he is cast down, return WITH the Lord, to destroy the devil, who with his angels was cast down to the earth, having great wrath, knowing he has BUT A SHORT TIME.



I think this idea of angels becomming mortal is really strange and cannot see anything in scripture to back up this opinion. Again it seems to be pure speculation. We are best to just stick to what is clearly taught in the word of God and not speculate on what might or might not be possible. In fact we are told that the devil and his angels are destined for eternal torment. That would be immortal torment. When we say 'mortal we are referring to our bodies. Our spirits and souls are immortal already.


_________________
Dave

 2009/9/22 16:42Profile









 Re: The Rapture, or the Second Coming? One or both?



To ccrider, elharris and others who question the Rapture:

I realize that you sincerely believe that there is no rapture, and you have defended your position with Scripture. I believe in the rapture, and would like to provide Scripture that supports my position. If you disagree with my position, please provide Scripture to refute my post. Also, please respond to the message. If you do not like the message, then do your best to refute it with Bible Scripture, and do not be angry with. I am only the messenger!

When Christ comes again, at the end of the Tribulation, at His second coming, does the Bible tell us that He comes WITH His Saints, or that He comes to get His Saints?. Does He come to earth with the souls of His dead in Heaven, and call for the BODIES of the dead in Christ to rise first, and then call those that are saved and alive on the earth second, and then go back into heaven, and re-enter the earth again with His Saints, for His Triumphal entry?


[b]This is my personal “Bible study” on the (#1) rapture ,(#2) the Second coming (at the end of the Tribulation) and (#3)the Bema judgments for Christian believers [/b]

Paul spent 3 years, in the desert, face to face with the Resurrected Jesus Christ, who personally discipled him and taught him of the coming “rapture”. This rapture was followed 7 years later by the “Return of the Saints” (Galations 12:1-18). Also, when Paul was stoned to death, his spirit went to Heaven (where he learned “unspeakable words” and wondrous things)

Paul is the Apostle that references the Rapture of the Church, before the Tribulation, more than any other Apostle of the New Testament, or Prophet of the Old Testament. Christ revealed to Paul this revelation:

(2 Cor 12:1-7)
1. It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In regards to the teaching of the Rapture, please note, as you look at the analysis of this prophesied event--- that Paul & Jesus Christ are the only ones who refer to the Prophecy of the Rapture, except in one verse-1John 3:2 , where John prophesizes of this event

In regards the “Return of the Saints”, at the end of the Great Tribulation ( another entirely different, separate event), please note that Old Testament Prophets [Zechariah, Isaiah, Joel, Amos, Malaki, Daniel, , inspired by the Holy Spirit] prophesied of this event, as well as Jesus Christ and, Paul, Jude (Jesus Christ’s step brother) Jude 1:14,15, .



[b]Rapture[/b]
Jesus coming for His Church/Bride up to Heaven, before tribulation. Luke 21:36; John 14:1-3; 1Thess 1:10, 4:14-17, 5:9; Rev 3:10

[b]Return with the Saints [/b]
Jesus coming with His Church/Bride down from Heaven, after tribulation. Zech 14:5; Col 3:4; Rev 19:7-8,14, 21:9-10; Matt 24:29-31; Jude 1:14,15; 1Thess 3:13

[b]Rapture[/b]
Caught up with Him in the air, in the clouds, 1Thess 4:13-18;
Return with the Saints
Jesus' feet touch the earth Zech 14:4; Rev 19:11-21, and he brings war, then peace.

[b]Rapture[/b]
Appears to Believers only. Mat 5:8, John 11:40, Heb 9:28
Return with the Saints
Every eye will see him, including unbelievers. Rev 1:7, Zech 12:10, Mat 24:30 Luke 3:6 John 19:37

[b]Rapture[/b]
Christians taken first, unbelievers are left behind a shut door. Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1, 1Thess 4:13-18
Return with the Saints
Wicked are taken first, Mat 13:28-30 the righteous (Tribulation saints) are left to populate the millennium.

[b]Rapture[/b]
Purpose: To present the Church to Himself and to the Father in Heaven, 2 Cor 11:2; Rev 19:6-9
Return with the Saints
Purpose: To execute judgment on earth and set up His Kingdom on earth. Zech 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21

[b]Rapture[/b]
Purpose: to cast satan out of heaven (Rev 12) down to the earth, which will reveal Satan for the Tribulation as the man of sin 2Thess 2
Return with the Saints
Purpose: to cast Satan to the bottomless pit, to bind Satan after the Tribulation.
Rev 20:1-7

[b]Rapture[/b]
Happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, no war, globally. 1Cor 15:52
Return with the Saints

[b]Rapture[/b]
Christians are changed, and get spirit bodies, go to heaven and do not marry, and become immortal; Mat 22:30; 1Cor 15:52; 1John 3:2
Return with the Saints
People populate the earth during the millinnium, some people still die, not being changed to immortality as at the rapture. Isa 65:20

[b]Rapture[/b]
Jesus descends with a shout (for resurrection) and trumpet noise. 1Thess 4:16
Return with the Saints
No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21


[b]Rapture[/b]
A resurrection takes place of all saints to immortality, to rule as kings and priests in Heaven over Earth 1Cor 15:51-54; 1Thess 4:13-18

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]

Resurrection of the tribulation saints to immortality who worship day and night in the temple of God. Rev 7:15, Rev 20:4-6,

[b]Rapture[/b]
Occurs as a thief in the night, at the 'no man knows the day or hour' festival of the Feast of Trumpets. Mat 24:43; 1Thess 5:4-6; Rev 3:3

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Occurs at end of 7 years of Tribulation; exact day predicted; 3.5 years or 1260 days after the abomination of desolation: Dan 9:24-27, 12:11-12; Rev 11:2, 12:6,14, 13:5

[b]Rapture[/b]
Is likened to the abduction of the bride during the Jewish Wedding, and the union of the bride and groom, which occurs at the start of the 7 day bridal week. Gen 29:22-28, Judges 14:1-18

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Is likened to the marriage feast, which occurs after the 7 day bridal week, returning from the wedding. Luke 12:36; Rev 19

[b]Rapture[/b]
The dead in Christ rise and together with then living will be changed into their new bodies and leave Earth with Jesus. 1Thess 4:14-16

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Christians return with Jesus in already resurrected bodies riding on white horses. Rev 19:11-21

[b]Rapture[/b]
Jesus returns as a savior from wrath Luke 21:36; Rom 5:9; 1Thess 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Jesus returns on a white horse, full of wrath. Rev 19:11

[b]Rapture[/b]
For the Church only (those in Christ) 1Thess 4:14-17

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
For redeemed Israel & Gentiles Mat 25:31-46; Rom 11:25-27

[b]Rapture[/b]

A message of hope and comfort 1Thess 4:18; Titus 2:13; 1John 3:3

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
A message of judgment and woe Joel 3:12-16; Amos 5:18; Mal 4:5; Rev 19:11-21

[b]Rapture[/b]
Like the days of Noah and Lot, which show deliverance and salvation from judgement.
2 Peter 2:7-9, Mat 24:37-44

[b]Return with the Saints[/b]
Like the plagues of Egypt, many of which are mirrored in Revelation, pouring out his Wrath, and He comes after the judgements.

[b]Christ is the firstfruits of the Resurrection.[/b]
1 Cor 15:20-23
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

[b]We (believers) are the firstfruits of the Spirit, that will receive our new resurrected bodies when he comes to get us at the rapture, as described above, and we will be like Him! The rapture takes place before the Tribulation and the “Day of the Lord”.[/b]

Romans 8:23-25
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

[b]When we receive our new resurrected bodies, we will be like Him![/b]

James 1:18
18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures


[b]This is another description of the Rapture and the receipt of our new resurrected bodies:[/b]

1 Cor 15:52-57
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[b]This is another description of the Rapture.[/b]
1 Thes 4:13-17
13. But I would not have you to be IGNORANT, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


[b]This passage describes what will happen when Christ comes back to redeem us to Himself. We will be perfect like Him in all ways! [/b]

1 Cor. 13:9-12
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 John 3:2
2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.xxxxxx

[color=990000][b]Next, we find a description of the Lord'S SECOND COMING-- coming back to the earth WITH HIS SAINTS (that would be the resurrected Church, described above, from the RAPTURE). . This clarifies for us that there is more than one resurrection (Firstfruits of the Resurrection). First, the rapture and resurrection, that occurs before anit-christ is revealed, described above, and then another resurrection of the souls of those that have become believers during the Tribulation, that have been be-headed by the antichrist, AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION:[/color][/b]

Zechariah 14
1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:[b][color=990000] and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.[/color][/b]6.And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7.But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Sincerely,

Walter


Quote:


elharris posted:

Dear Brother,

I can totally relate to what you said, about finding out that you are deceived. I also went through a very long period of what I can only call "UN-learning". And yes it can rip your heart out to find out you have been lied to.

However I also went through another period of realizing that I was in a position of not really knowing the truth. Therefore like you I also sought it and came to many wrong conclusions all on my own.

You can be deceived by others, who as I found out, do not mean to deceive you but have also simply just been deceived. But you can then also in your searh for the truth, and regardless of how deeply you may contemplate and search, often deceive yourself.

Sometimes, we jump to a conclusion of a matter simply because we have not taken ALL of the evidence into consideration. Not because we do this on purpose, but simply because our fact finding and knowledge is incomplete in an area.

I can't tell you how many times, I would be studying and come to a conclusion or think I really saw something, like EURIKA I'VE GOT IT! Be all thrilled with what I thought was a new revelation or understanding, and then later as I kept researching and studying find out I was WRONG as rain. I actually embarassed myself.

What's worse was I also spread my ideas around. But I also found that what I thought was such a great revelation, others had also come up with at one time or another.

You can take the Word and make it into just about anything by drawing a wrong conclusion, by simply over looking a few facts. And AGAIN most people DO NOT do this on purpose and most are sincerely looking for the truth.

[color=990000][b][u]Now like you I also believed in the whole pre-trib rapture thing. And also came to believe that was not true.[/color][/b][/u]

I believe that EVERY SINGLE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE HAS TO FIT IN CONTEXT WITH EVERY OTHER VERSE FOR A WHOLE AND COMPLETE NOT CONTRADICTORY UNDERSTANDING. And it ultimate comes down to not just context of passage, but context of book with book.

Therefore since I believe that, if I came to a wrong conclusion, another scripture would eventually point that out to me.

Then I would have to RETHINK my whole premise. And so sometimes I would just put things on a shelf for later.

I just became so use to finding things that others had taught me, that were in error, but I also became very use to being wrong myself. Point being I just want the truth no matter what it is and am willing to change my mind accordingly. But you have to believe and understand that you are just as able to deceive yourself.

I do not think God is afraid of you deceiveing yourself, I think it's all a part of learning. Because f you truly have a LOVE FOR THE TRUTH, and you continue in his word, eventually you will correct yourself. Unfortunately what has happened over the years, is men deceive themselves, come up with a false teaching and then teach it to others, start a big denominiation, and then have a very hard time recanting and then the error just keeps going on through their followers.

[color=990000][b][u]Now I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture as I once did. And the funny thing was, that many years before I came to the conclusion I was listening to a man on TV, that guy on Shepards Chappel. And he was saying the pre-trib was not true.

I had never even been given or heard of another "option" to the pre-trib rapture, and when I heard him that time, I remember thinking how "full of it" the guy was.

But 4 years later, I was studying and decided to go through every single verse (in context) of the RESURRECTION, and anything to do with being raised from the dead.

It was in that study that I realized the pre-trib rapture was not true. That we were not going to be in a RAPTURE, but that our hope was in THE RESURRECTION. But that "part" of that resurrection was that there would be people alive at the TIME of the RESURRECTION, that would be changed, and caught up without having to die.

And this aspect of The Resurrection, they take and make into an event OUTSIDE of The Resurrection in and of itself, thus perverting the truth, as well as putting it "before" the tribulation. You see, since they believe they are in a "speical" church, then anything Jesus taught about The Resurrection, does not apply, therefore they can give us a "special rapture" for a "special church", isn't that "special".

We DO NOT look forward or have a hope of a RAPTURE, but of a RESURRECTION of the Just, also called the first resurrection. But a small part of that is that WHEN it takes place, some will be alive and accounted worthy to be caught up with the raised dead.[/color][/b][/u]

So YES I can understand what you are saying about the verses in question Matt 16:28 and Luke 9:27.

But if as you say, Jesus has come already, then the resurrection of which he spoke is then PAST ALREADY.

First before I share that I do not believe this, I will tell you the conclusion I finally came to regarding the verses in question.

You have to realize that Jesus saw SPIRITUALLY. Meaning that he had eyes open into the world of the SPIRIT. Much like the following record.

2 Kings 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, [b]open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.



The fact is that WE ARE NOT ALONE!

EVER!


Besides the hosts of people we may SEE with our eyes, there is a host of "people" i.e. "angels" and "spirit beings", devils, that we DO NOT SEE!


Jesus came down to be a human being, so that he could be touched with the FEELINGS of our infirmities. One of those "infirmities" is the fact that we can TASTE DEATH. In fact one of the main reasons he came was to deliver those who through all their life time were subject to the FEAR OF DEATH.

Well WHO is and had NEVER BEEN subject to the fear of death?

The answer is ANGELS.


Deamons or devils, or devil spirits which are really just apostate evil angels, have NEVER TASTED, THE FEAR OF DEATH, because they are and always have been immortal.


While Jesus was standing there, he knew that there were more than just PEOPLE, that is "human mortal beings", running the show. He knew that behind the religious leaders who were condemning him and desireing to kill him were principalities and powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, evil spirits in high places of authority in this world, BEHIND what the "mortals" he was talking to were doing.


Literally, there were angels, the devils angels, and most likely the devil himself present.


For as it states: Had the princes of this world, known the mystery, they never would have crucified the Lord of Glory.


This is also why Paul states: Know ye not that we shall judge ANGELS.


And how it is that we do not truly wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities against powers, but against wicked spirits at work in this world.


Hence these beings are REAL and were standing there with in and among the people Jesus was talking to.


Even in this day and time, I know very often that their are devils present and hearding and seeing what we do. I have many times rebuked them and told them to get out of my house.


Here is another lie which we have been taught in religion. This is that Satan has "already", past tence, been cast out of heaven. This is not true, for he still apears before God as our accuser, accusing us night and day, But Jesus is our paraclete our defence attorney on the other side.

Satan will not be cast down out of heaven until The Resurrection of the Just, when Jesus comes and calls forth the dead believers out of their graves, at which time they will receive new immortal bodies fashioned like unto his glorious body, the body of ANGELS. And "some" believers who are alive at that time WILL NEVER TASTE OF DEATH, AT ALL. For they will be caught up in the air with them, having never died.

But at the same moment that this all takes place, Satan and his angles will also be cast down to the earth, and his place shall no more be found in heaven.

This is big main part of the HOPE OF OUR CALLING.


Now I believe in what is called the law of reversals. And I see this in the Word all over the place.


In this case the Devil to be cast out of heaven to the earth with his angels must be STRIPPED of many if not all of his angelic powers.


For considder this O man of God, Brother, if we can be like angels, and someday have bodies like theirs, then WHY CANNOT the Lord, with whom anything is possible, condemn them to suffer by manking THEM as mortals.


I believe that as the elect become immortal, he and his followers become perhaps MORTAL. I also beleive that those who are accounted worthy to obtain that FIRST resurrection of the Just, take his place of authority as principalities and powers, but will be rulers of light on this earth, rather than darkness, when they not long after, he is cast down, return WITH the Lord, to destroy the devil, who with his angels was cast down to the earth, having great wrath, knowing he has BUT A SHORT TIME.


You see a REVERSAL!


When he is cast down to the earth, having been stripped of his immortality, he and his angles, become like men and CAN TASTE DEATH.


As it was said, if the princes of this world had known this mystery, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. We know that at one point, Jesus cast out a devil, that said "What have we to do with thee Jesus, have you come to torment us BEFORE THE TIME.


Devils or evil angels, knew that their time was numbered. They knew enough of scripture to know they would be tormented. But did they know their killing the Lord of Glory, would result in their immortality being taken, and that they would literally FEEL physical PAIN, and suffering and all the things they have subjected men to for thousands of years, having NO MERCY?


It is a JUST THING with God to recompence tribulation to them who trouble you. How just would it be for US to recompence HIM, that is Satan, and his followers, when we come with Christ to pour out God's wrath on the Beast and his kingdom.


But you see how a great earthquake will take place on the earth with the dead are raised from their graves. And the few living elect will be caught up with them in the clouds. And the devil and his angels thrown down hear to the earth.


And what will the people of the earth do? For the dead have been raised and many who were alive, were being sought and persicuted by them, will have been taken, while all these other supposed FOLKS (devils, evil angles make mortal) show up on the scene.


What an army that will be here on this earth. Even as "mortals", who could make war with them?


I personally believe, from my own researh and study of the Word, that the beast Satan himself.


And that the wound in the head, means having his angelic power and authority stipped. He is now still in a position of authority, but it's mortal human authority. Kinda puts a different slant to the term "Hell on earth", doesn't it.


You know people compute the number of the beast, and figgure out who he's going to be. But one thing that is always common when they speak of that number is that it's the number of the devil. Well what if it IS the devil.


Look here at what is said of him in the end. You ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO READ THE CONTEXT OF EVERYTHING. And many read this first verse but do not continue to read and see that in the end he will be but like a man.


Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (to the GRAVE to "taste of death.)

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, IS THIS THE MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.


I am sorry brother, but I cannot agree with you that the Lord has returned ALREADY. For I know that standing there that day were angels that have yet to be judged, and who were the the originators of all the evil, the men that could be SEEN were perpitrating.

Other have come up with the same idea in their studies, even as far back as the firt century.

2 Tim 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

AGAIN all believers should learn to read the context. Who were Hymenaeus and Philetus, but believers who were studying the scriptures, and came up with the idea that the Lord had already returned. For, for the resurrection to be PAST already, the Lord would have had to have returned.

Paul said that this doctrine they came up with would eat at the body of Christ like ganegrene, infesting the whole body.

Research Church docternal history, this belief led to Christianity thinking that they were to rule in the name of Christ on earth, with out the King, hince the RCC was born. This is what these kinds of doctrines lead to.

There is not kingdom of God in earth WITHOUT the personal presence of the King.

So all that I have stated here can be shown clearly in many many scriptures in context from Genesis to Revelation, without having to explain away any, or avoid any. That is the only way I finally these days make my mind up on something, by large portions of scripture.

You have to think about and think about deeply, the RAMIFICATIONS that take place when men falsely come to a conclusion that prophecy has come to pass when it has not.

When they do this, then they must also reinterpret everything else in the Word.

Regards,
El Harris

PS Walter, if you make it this far, again I have no problem with copy and paiste. For one thing if it's something you agree with and they said it good, who cares. I do however think that we oten rely too much on others ideas of what they think something means. And in doing so miss out on what God could help us understand from his word






 2009/9/22 20:31









 Re:

Waltern, I have no clue as to what you are talking about. I never mentioned the word 'rapture' anywhere in my post. You even posted my 'raptureless' quote yet you say I question it. The heading of the thread was 'did Jesus already come'? One statement from the original post was: "I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous."

I was responding to this and this only. I find it entirely appropriate to entertain the original queries of the thread and not let it get lost in translation. Although I'm tempted to, I'm not going to bother explaining my point.

 2009/9/23 12:35









 Re:



To ccrider:

If you will look two posts before your post, elharris stated that he believed in the Second Coming, but not the Rapture.

I was responding to elharris, and any other posters that responded after his post. If I included you in error, then by all means, I apologize.


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

ccrider wrote:
Waltern, I have no clue as to what you are talking about. I never mentioned the word 'rapture' anywhere in my post. You even posted my 'raptureless' quote yet you say I question it. The heading of the thread was 'did Jesus already come'? One statement from the original post was: "I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous."

I was responding to this and this only. I find it entirely appropriate to entertain the original queries of the thread and not let it get lost in translation. Although I'm tempted to, I'm not going to bother explaining my point.


 2009/9/23 13:03









 Re:

I guess I should have seen that brother. I'm truly sorry for the harsh post, I should have asked you if there was a misunderstanding before I jumped in. I need to work on that. Thanks.

cc-

 2009/9/23 13:12
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Ephesians 2:15-22 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Even in Himself, One new man. Not only has He taken away the Law and Commandments, but everything that separated Jew and Gentile, that no one can boast in the flesh. This One New man is each individual that God Himself has given to the Son because of His great sacrifice unto death, even death of the Cross, that Christ might take all those the Father has given Him and make of them in Himself One New man, "a new creature" in Christ.

The great question; where is Christ now? The answer that most have not acquired in their walk and working out their own salvation, the answer is; :Christ in you the hope of glory".

So, has He come? The resounding answer is, YES, He has come in the flesh of those that He purchased on the Cross. Even That flesh, quickened, being the born again, new creation of "twain, one new man", Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

This Peter says is hard to understand, but never the less, it is of truth. That which is perfect has come and He is in the quickened flesh, by the Spirit of Christ in you, of which if we don't have we are, "none of His."

1 John 4:1-21 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in (the)((((Is not in the translation)))) flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in (the)((((is not in the translation)))) flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: ((((because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world:)))) therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, ((((but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.)))) Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. ((((Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.)))) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: ((((((((((because as he is, so are we in this world.)))))))))) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Has He come in our flesh? Yes or we are none of His, quickened in the flesh, born again of the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit inhabiting our soul/mind that we might know, we are son's of God, because, "as He is, so are we in this world".

1 Corinthians 13:9-13 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Has He come? Is He come? Will He come?

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/9/23 14:49Profile





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