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 Did Jesus come already?

Yes another Eschatology thread. We need to always set the record straight.

Waltern your welcome to interact, but I would prefer that you simply state your case and not accuse me of being wrong. If you can't do that, don't post. Thank you

The purpose of this thread is to show that Jesus was truly a prophet in that what He said would happen did happen and the people to whom He was speaking to He was speaking to them and not in some future "generation".

I am going to present two obscure verses that most people glide over and don't take into consideration, and I will leave the rest up to you beloved to study and let the holy Spirit be your guide and not commentaries.

I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous. You know, the Pharisees thought Jesus spoke blasphemy when He told them that God was His Father, making Him equal with God. Notice how they put the Son and the Father as one. Ask yourself this question, if God is my Father and I am one with God, what does that make us? I'll leave that answer between you and our Father.

Now on to the subject at hand. Here are the verses to consider.

Quote:
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Quote:
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.



I can hear some of you now, "Read in context". Then by all means read it in context, most of us have bibles.

 2009/9/21 8:42









 Re: Did Jesus come already?

Have you ever believed something for so long and it became a truth to you? We all have. People will quote a verse that their Mother and Father said was in the bible and that verse is not there, but they will swear on a stack of bibles that it's there so that they can hold on to the memory of their parents instead of finding these things out for themselves. Most people who believe like that will never search for themselves. Why? Because they don't want to believe that their parents were liars, they don't want to face that truth. It's a painful journey to discover that what we have known to be truth has turned out to be error. It's a feeling of being undone, ripped apart, the carpet being pulled out from under us. I used to believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching and I am glad that I no longer of that persuasion because I can't find any of the scriptures to support that lie.

 2009/9/21 8:59
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Hi DeepThinker,

I'm not totally sure what your position is here? You seem to give the impression that you believe Jesus did not predict future events and His future return. I may be mistaking you, so please clarify.

DeepThinker said:

Quote:
I used to believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching and I am glad that I no longer of that persuasion because I can't find any of the scriptures to support that lie



Do you mean you are now pre-trib? :-) Or do you mean you used to be pre-millenial and are now Amillenial in your thinking?

Need to now what you are saying before we can address the question.


_________________
Dave

 2009/9/21 9:24Profile









 Re:

Hi Dave, please refer to the first postings 2 verses, that is the question. But as to your question. I am neither, because there is no teaching of any "Great Tribulation period" purported by the "end time" teachers.

But please go back to the first post and comment on the verses.

 2009/9/21 9:52
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Deepthinker, if you have something that you would like to share or teach on, go ahead. Respectfully, no one can read your mind. Although I know where you stand on this subject, many others do not.

Why don't you give us your interpretation of the scripture that you posted instead waiting for others to reply so you can 'correct' them. ;-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2009/9/21 10:54Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

In Matthew 24:15-31 Jesus talks about 'great tribulation' (v21). This could not have been fulfilled already as He says His comming will be like lightening flashing across the sky from east to west (v27). Sun and moon darkened and stars falling from Heaven (v29). Every one on earth will see His coming in the clouds and the angels will gather the elect together (v30).I don't think we have seen these things yet, unless we missed it!


In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Paul tells them that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ has NOT come and not to be deceived by people who say it has.:-( Because He will not come until the Anti Christ is first revealed.

So how do I take the scritures you quoted about the Kingdom of God coming in power and glory during the lifetime of those who were there at the time Jesus said that? Well Jesus could not be referring to His second coming, so He must have been talking about the Kingdom of God coming in Power, beginning at the day of Pentecost. The kingdom of God means the rule of God. This is now to be manifested in and through His church.We see this through Acts, in particular in chapters 1 - 5. But this does not take away from the clear teaching we have about Jesus coming back again after a period of 'great tibulation'.


_________________
Dave

 2009/9/21 11:06Profile
humblyD
Member



Joined: 2009/5/14
Posts: 17


 Re: Did Jesus come already?

Who gave you your name? Just curious.It seems to me you need to do much more listening(and thinking)and alot less speaking. I mean you really come off prideful and unteachable. There are many here who would take the time to explain the bible to you.
including myself.
Peace

 2009/9/21 11:28Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Ok - I'll stick my neck out and try to answer Deepthinker's question from the book of Matthew, and please feel free to correct me (kindly).

In the passage that contains the verse in the book of Matthew, Jesus begins by informing his disciples of what he must do...

[i]Mt 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.[/i]

But Peter, with his mind set on earthly things, saw only defeat in Jesus' impending death and impulsively declared that Jesus should not die...

[i]Mt 16:22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”[/i]

Jesus rebuked Peter soundly for his earthly attitude...

[i]Mt 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, [color=CC3300]“Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”[/color][/i]

Then Jesus began to teach his disciples what he expected of them. He said [b]they must die[/b] to themselves in order to gain eternal life with him when he returns...

[i]Mt 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, [color=CC3300]“If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but [b]whoever loses his life for me will find it[/b]. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."[/color][/i]

Then we come to the final verse which Deepthinker has asked about.

[i]Mt 16:28 [color=CC3300]"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will [b]not taste death[/b] before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”[/color][/i]

I am therefore faced with three possible interpretations of this verse:

1) Jesus was talking about physical death and returned soon after his resurrection before all his disciples died, but no one noticed all that thunder, lightning, and fire falling from the sky, and the final demolition of the earth is taking an awfully long time, or...

2) Jesus was talking about physical death and, by his grace, there are 2,000+-year-old disciples cooling their heels somewhere, waiting for his return, or...

3) Jesus was talking about "death to self", thereby declaring that some of the disciples would not qualify to enter his kingdom when he returned.

I would go with the third option (and he might have been glaring at Peter when he said this). I think you could analyze the passage from Luke in the same way. In fact, the third option seems clearer in the book of Luke.

 2009/9/21 11:50Profile









 Re: Did Jesus come already?



To Deepthinker:

Matthew 16:28 states, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Parallel passages are found in Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27.

The key to having a clear understanding of this is found in what immediately follows each of these verses. Jesus calls Peter, James, and John, takes them up to a high mountain and is transfigured before them while Moses and Elijah come down to discuss His coming death. Consider the things that point to this being the event Jesus referred to in Matthew 16:28.

Jesus "was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light" (Matthew 17:2). This matches the glorified appearance of Christ in Revelation 1:13-18 where "his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength" (Revelation 1:16).

Of Moses and Elijah, the Bible says that they "appeared in glory" (Luke 9:31). They did not just appear in a natural way but "in glory." Colossians 3:4 states, "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." This points directly to the coming of Christ in glory (Matthew 24:30).

When the disciples awoke, they looked at Christ and "saw his glory" (Luke 9:32). This is a very powerful statement. They saw the glorified Christ. They saw Him as King of Kings.

A cloud overshadowed them and the Father said, "This is my beloved Son: hear him" (Luke 9:34-35). This too points to the presence and glory of God in fullness and power.

Jesus told them not to tell of the vision until He had risen from the dead (Matthew 17:9). Ths vision was not for the time that Jesus walked on the earth before His crucifixion. It was a glimpse of His coming kingdom.

[color=990000][b]Peter, James, and John received a vision of the future kingdom and glory of Christ. They saw Him coming in His kingdom. It was to this event that Peter referred when he said, "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount." (2 Peter 1:16-18).

These three men were eyewitnesses of the majesty of "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." What a glorious opportunity they had! What a glorious testimony they give!

His actual physical return in Glory is very near![/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


Quote:

DeepThinker wrote:
Yes another Eschatology thread. We need to always set the record straight.

Waltern your welcome to interact, but I would prefer that you simply state your case and not accuse me of being wrong. If you can't do that, don't post. Thank you

The purpose of this thread is to show that Jesus was truly a prophet in that what He said would happen did happen and the people to whom He was speaking to He was speaking to them and not in some future "generation".

I am going to present two obscure verses that most people glide over and don't take into consideration, and I will leave the rest up to you beloved to study and let the holy Spirit be your guide and not commentaries.

I know that the title is shocking. The very thought of anyone believing that Christ has already come sounds blasphemous. You know, the Pharisees thought Jesus spoke blasphemy when He told them that God was His Father, making Him equal with God. Notice how they put the Son and the Father as one. Ask yourself this question, if God is my Father and I am one with God, what does that make us? I'll leave that answer between you and our Father.

Now on to the subject at hand. Here are the verses to consider.

Quote:
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Quote:
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.



I can hear some of you now, "Read in context". Then by all means read it in context, most of us have bibles.

 2009/9/21 15:06
dab
Member



Joined: 2008/8/8
Posts: 50
Kentucky

 Re:

HumblyD, Not that I don't understand your question to DeepThinker, but perhaps that could be addressed through a private message, rather than through the post? Just a thought. His post appears to have generated some 'thoughtful' examination.

David


_________________
David

 2009/9/21 16:29Profile





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