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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine :  Christians must NOT be be called a sinner!!!

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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


Jesus told this parable:

[i][color=CC3300]Lk 18:10-14 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’"

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, [u]‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner[/u].’ "

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/color][/i]

Whether we cleave closely to God, or whether we stumble and stray, we should always acknowledge what we are without Him, that we may be ever grateful for His grace and mindful of our daily walk.

[i]Pr 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.[/i]

 2009/9/23 21:08Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


I am just saying that a person who is born again has been changed. To be born again means that you used to be a sinner but now you are a Saint. You used to be disobedient but now you are obedient. You used to be unrighteous in your position and your practice, but now you are righteous in your position and your practice. Anything less than this is a false conversion.

But where is justification in all of this? What you are describing for the most part is sanctification, not justification.

By the way, I agree with these things to a degree, BUT my standing with God is not based on the things I do or do not do. It is based on Christ and His work outside of me.

Jesus radically saves sinners. He turns them into new men. Jesus is a real Savior from sin.

Absolutely He does! BUT this does not mean perfection in the ones He saves. A new nature comes into the person and as leaven in dough, begins to spread and change that person. Sanctification is a life-long process.

Read 1 John.

Yes, I have and also understand that it says that if you say you are without sin, you lie(not you in particular by the way). But, what is the sin that to death that John mentions? Is it not the denial of Christ and who He is and what He has done, which is part of the false teaching that John is addressing in that Epistle, as well as the thought that one could be a Christian and sin all they wanted apart from any struggle with sin?

See John has a particular idea in view when he wrote that, and to misunderstand that causes a lot of confusion over what is and what is not meant by that Epistle.

A Christian is someone who follows Jesus. Jesus lived a perfect life and He is our example. We are not following Christ while we are sinning! You cannot serve two masters. You are either sinning or you are a Christian, you are either sinning or you are following Jesus. You cannot do both at the same time.

Actually, you can and a lot of people do. For one, how many people pray with selfish motives but think they are following Jesus?

Also following Jesus is not how a person is saved. You can do all that Jesus would do, and actually think that God owes you because you are not as bad as other men(the Pharisee in Luke 18). Grace is offensive and it puts to death ANY hope in our ability to do enough for God to accept us.

God accepts ONE righteousness, and that is Christ's. If you have it, you are saved, if you don't, it doesn't matter how good your life looks, or how long you pray, or how much your read your Bible, you will be lost [i] because [/i] of your "goodness".

patrick heaviside

 2009/9/23 21:19Profile


When a person repents (turn from sin) and trust in Christ, God justifies them. Until a person changes their mind about sinning (repentance) God does not pardon them (justification). If a person still plans on breaking God's law, God will not forgive them for breaking His law. Repentance (a change of mind about breaking God's law) always comes before forgiveness.

Once we repent then we are forgiven. And after that, we will live out this change of mind. We will live a holy life. The Christian life is not a life of hypocricy, it is a life of holiness. The Bible doesn't use the term "sinning Saint" it uses the term hypocrite. And hypocrites will have their part with the unbelievers.

You cannot be partly holy and partly unholy. You cannot be partly obedient and partly disobedient. You are either obeying God or you are disobeying God. Sinners are disobedient but Christians are obedient. A sinner is in rebellion against God but a Christian is in submission to God. You cannot be rebellious and submitted at the same time! You are either a good tree with good fruit or a bad tree with bad fruit. But you cannot be a good tree with bad fruit anymore than you can be a bad tree with good fruit!

 2009/9/23 21:28

Joined: 2009/6/25
Posts: 34


Hi Truefaithsav,

You distinguish the proper results of a regenerated life but you confuse (i don't know unintentionally or for the purpose of making your point)the term being called "Sinners" with the reality that all saints sin. It is true as you stated in your last post that we are Saints , born again as a new creature who have the power to live righteously. But you don't clarify that we still and will always continue to sin. We don't practice sin (as is states in 1 John) and we have the assurance of victory over sin but we will always struggle with sin.Jesus said The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
The title for you post seems to induce confusion. I understand your whole point was to discuss the nature of genuine conversion but it would be beneficial to for you to balance this truth with the reality that even though we're new we still have war with the flesh.

 2009/9/23 21:41Profile


The word Saint in the greek means a holy person. We are not holy when we sin. I believe that a holy person can sin, but they cease to be holy when they sin. Sinfulness and holiness are opposites, that is why a person cannot be a Saint and sinful at the same time. Just like a person cannot be a sinner and be holy at the same time.

Saints still have a free will. Saints can sin. Saints can even backslide completely if they want and go to hell. But nobody is holy while they are sinning. And nobody is forgiven until they repent.

If a Saint sins, they cease to be holy and therefore cease to be Saints. They become a sinner. And they must repent or perish. If they repent God will forgive them. If they do not repent, but they die in their sin, they will go to hell.

King David and King Saul were both saved. They both sinned. But one repented and was restored, the other did not repent and went to hell.

The Apostle Peter and the Apostle Judas were both Christians. But they both sinned. One repented and one did not, that is why one went to Heaven and one went to hell.

 2009/9/23 21:46

Joined: 2004/3/1
Posts: 103


I understand your whole point was to discuss the nature of genuine conversion but it would be beneficial to for you to balance this truth with the reality that even though we're new we still have war with the flesh.

Truthinlove, you summed it up well. To clarify myself, I totally believe in the Victory given to those who call on Him. My life was so transformed that people from my church family find my testimony very hard to believe. It's given me many open doors to share Christ over the years. So yes I've experienced the delivering power of God... but to say I no longer sin anymore? My wife would roll her eyes at that one. :-) Again, I'm not in bondage but this old man continually has to be put to death every single day. I know this is true for every Saint of God.

 2009/9/23 22:28Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Ro 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Ro 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Ro 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Do we believe?

Where are we perfect? In Christ by the Christ in us. That is why John can say, "If any man sin", we have an advocate with the Father". In the same epistle, say, "he that is born from above cannot sin". We cannot commit a sin of the Spirit for that is Christ, we can commit, "if any man sin", sin of the flesh, then we confess and are cleansed in the flesh, in our soul/mind and and the Father, "is faithful and just to forgive us and cleans us from all unrighteousness. Where are we cleansed? In our soul/mind. The Spirit of Christ cannot sin, that is where we are Perfect.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Our perfect is according to, "His working, which workfare in us mightily".

In the Flesh we are still able to sin and make God a liar if we say we have no sin. In the Spirit we cannot sin.

Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Ga 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

This is the Spirit of Christ, not the Holy Spirit which dwells in our soulish part, Who is separate in the work being done and the One that searches the deep things of God.

Without the Spirit of Christ in us, we are none of His. The Holy Spirit will reveal all things that Jesus has said, and comfort us in this truth and revelation of The Christ in us.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Only the Son can reveal the Father to us, and only the Father can reveal the Son to us. The Holy Spirit is the revealer. Where do we need revelation? In our soul/mind, not in our Spirit, for that is already perfect.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Who is the Teacher?

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit.

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

That is why we are perfect in our Spirit because Christ is perfect and His Seed remaineth in us.
The Holy Spirit is working in our soulish part to impart the mind of Christ to us that we may be Holy even as He is Holy and know that we are son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip


 2009/9/23 22:46Profile


I would say that I dont usually sin. It is not my habit. Sin is not the overall characteristic of my life. Sin is the exception, not the rule. Sinning is not my practice.

Because of the Holy Spirit in my life, obedient is how I usually live. That is my habit. That is the overall characteristic of my life. That is the rule, not the exception.

Sinning every day is a lifestyle of sin. Sinning every day is a habit of sin. Sinning every day is having a practice of sin! I don't sin every day, nor do I sin every week or every month. That is the power of Jesus Christ in my life! That glorifies His saving power! Before Jesus was in my life, I sinned every day. Before Jesus changed me, I was constantly sinning.

When we have a new heart, it is a pure heart. If we have a disobedient heart, we are not born again.

 2009/9/23 23:02

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


truefaithsav wrote:
I would say that I dont usually sin. It is not my habit. Sin is not the overall characteristic of my life. Sin is the exception, not the rule.

Your title is the characteristic of your life.
To be called a sinner, you must be sinning all day & every day.

Sin is always a choice; if you are sinning everyday, then STOP IT!!!

 2009/9/23 23:20Profile


Jesus presupposed that sin was a choice and that sin was avoidable when He said, "go and sin no more".

If we didn't have the ability to be morally perfect, Jesus wouldn't have told us "be ye perfect".

 2009/9/23 23:26

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