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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : my theory on predestination

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Chosen7Stone
Member



Joined: 2003/7/21
Posts: 268
FL, USA

 Re:

Adding to what our brother "nobody" said in the last post...
God gives believers spiritual gifts, at the discretion of the Holy Spirit. To some, He has gifted wisdom, knowledge, scholarship...whatever you want to label it. Spiritual gifts are for the purpose of the edification (building up & encouraging) of the body of Christ.
God has gifted such men as commentary writers with this said gift. If it is for my and your edification, a gift from God, why not take full advantage of it?
Yes, to read the Bible is essential, and you cannot read a commentary with out depending first and foremost on God's holy Word. But the supplement is a gift from God that He can use to grow you.

Getting back to the topic at hand, predestination/election vs. free will...
If there were free will, we humans would be able to take credit upon ourselves and say, "I made the right choice. I did something good." If God chooses us, He gets all the credit, glory and praise that He deserves.


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Mary M.

 2003/10/16 21:53Profile
almondBranch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/6
Posts: 91
Tralee, Ireland

 Re: my theory on predestination

As a new christian I was a pretty standard free will believer. After a few years God sat me down and really began to show me His soverignity it was all I could see in the scriptures, I was absolutley overwhelmed by it. I pretty much rejected all I had previosly learned about human responsability. Well, as time went on some of my own responsability before God began to be highlighted again.

People often ask me where I stand on the issue, I usualy point them to romans 11, read it. Talking about God's dealings with Israel you see so much in there of God's soverignity but also much of our own responsability.

close to the end of that passage Paul says:

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how [u]unsearchable[/u] are his judgments, and his ways [u]past finding out![/u]"

My question to those who would vehemently argue and polarise on these issues; have you searched out God's judgments and have you found out His ways?

Looking unto Him, Stuart.


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Stuart

 2003/10/26 18:47Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

almondBranch
I think you hit the spot.
Great question. I shall use it sometime in the future, no doubt.
Many thanks


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Ron Bailey

 2003/10/27 8:50Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Stuart,
I agree with Philologos, great point, great post. And I think you are totally right on.

So this is not an attempt to vehemently argue or polarize, just an idea to roll around.

As a defense of free will in salvation, I think of this scenario. Let's say someone reaches out their hands to you with a free gift that you can freely take. Can you then boast if you take the gift? Is there any room for boasting or pride? Yes, it was your free choice to take it, but it's hardly something you can boast about (at least without seeming really foolish).

How rediculous would it be to boastfully declare, "Well, [b]I[/b] reached out my hand and grabbed it!"

That's kind of how I see both God's sovereignty and free will working, in a mysterious way, together. God draws the sinner, offers the gift, and then they make a choice.


 2003/10/27 19:33Profile
joshua
Member



Joined: 2003/10/28
Posts: 1


 Re:

What do we do with passages such as John 6 when it comes to man's incapability apart from being drawn by the Father and a particular few who have been given to Christ by the Father? A simple look at the text screams of God's sovereignty and His particular redemption.

 2003/10/28 0:23Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

I have posted a couple times on this thread on the side of Calvinism, but I do agree with these recent posts that this is a topic on which the Bible seems to be perfectly paradoxical. For every scripture a Calvinist can pull out there is a counter from the Arminian. This does not mean that we should ignore the issue as unresolvable(as many do)! Just because we can't fully bend our mind around a paradox doesn't mean we can't learn by banging our head against it a few times and trying to embrace both sides of it.

I just think that way too many people in the church are on the far end of this issue on the freewill side and have never seen the beauty of the Scripture's description of us being chosen, drawn, and guarded. I guess since I have been surrounded by freewill believers for so long I feel the need to press some of the strong Calvinist arguments (The people on this site seem to be better balanced than my local brothers and sisters).

My God is "one" and "three" simultaneously, He chose me but I seek Him, and I am saved by grace but yet I work for Him as a slave to righteousness. I can just sit for hours and ponder the depth of His Word. He is both the One who chose Calvin and the One who Arminius sought. Am I wrong?

 2003/10/28 9:53Profile
Everlast
Member



Joined: 2003/10/16
Posts: 63
Missouri

 Re:

Excellent post! I have been reading through this thread and I like the way you have stated your thoughts. Especially....

Quote:


nobody wrote:

My God is "one" and "three" simultaneously, He chose me but I seek Him, and I am saved by grace but yet I work for Him as a slave to righteousness. I can just sit for hours and ponder the depth of His Word. He is both the One who chose Calvin and the One who Arminius sought. Am I wrong?



To me that says a lot about how we humans try to understand everything, without understanding anything. Our God is an infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent God. Can we understand all aspects of these terms...no, for we are simply humans. We just trust and believe and have faith that God is all these things. We could argue and grapple for ever about any of these things and still never have a complete understanding. Some of these things are what I would like to call "God Questions"...questions that when I see Jesus face to face I can ask.:)


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Shelly

 2003/10/28 15:33Profile
streetpreacher
Member



Joined: 2003/10/27
Posts: 5
Jonesboro, AR

 Re:

"At this hour of my understanding, here is my theory of predestination:

1. God knows all things
2. I do not know all things
3. The bible contains all things necessary for life and godliness"

And here is my theory of God's Exhaustive Foreknowledge:

1. God knows all things that He has exhaustively settled as such.
2. God knows all things that He has left as contingent as such.
3. Therefore, the future is both settled and contingent.

See Adam Clarke's Commentary for basically the same argument.


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Carlton McLemore

 2003/11/11 2:50Profile
streetpreacher
Member



Joined: 2003/10/27
Posts: 5
Jonesboro, AR

 Re:

"I think God's soveriegnty lays in His foreknowledge. As in your example of a timeline, God has already seen all of history take place. And this foreknowledge is to me the greatest proof that God has allowed us a limited free choice. While He is not willing that any should perish, He has allowed us to choose this day whom we will serve."

While I agree with your basic assumption, we must recognize that if God's foreknowledge is not one of contingencies, rather than absolute, then our free choice is merely an illusion. For if God knows something as exhaustively "settled", who could choose otherwise? Rather it is the fact that God sees ALL of the decisions of free moral agents, INCLUDING the ones we DON'T choose that allows us this "limited freedom" that you have described.


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Carlton McLemore

 2003/11/11 2:57Profile
streetpreacher
Member



Joined: 2003/10/27
Posts: 5
Jonesboro, AR

 Re:

Hmmm... I wonder at what point in Wesley's life this was written? His brother Charles called Calvin the "first-born son of the devil." Ouch!

I also heard Ravenhill on one of the sermons here say he "wonders if Calvin will make it" into heaven on the day of judgement.


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Carlton McLemore

 2003/11/11 3:00Profile





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