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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : RICK WARREN- False Teacher or man of God?

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ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: RICK WARREN- False Teacher or man of God?

HI everyone,


Waltern, you said this,


"Believers should test the spirits behind a person’s action to see if the action brings glory to God."



You have been confronted on these formus by moderators and other users mulitple times about this same thing, including this thread.


What has been your response?





You also wrote,



'Bad Judgment Statement: “You are going to hell because of what you do.”'



And then you finished what you wrote by saying,




"He is also a Pied Piper, leading millions of other dear baby Christians, who have been deceived by him, right into the lake of fire."


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/9/16 20:07Profile









 Re:

To ChrisJD:

Well, here we are again. Please provide something other than your own opinion on this issue that supports your position that no “Christians” should ever be examined by other Christains, to see if they are truly what they proclaim to be--"Christian Believers"”

I have used the Word of God, that is clear on this issue. No matter what you or I believe, it must be supported by Scripture.

False prophets and false teachers have been within the body of Christ since the beginning!

Here you go, one more time. Lets see how you respond to God’s Word, to God’s Requirement. If you do not agree with Scripture, then please post from whatever [u]authority[/u] you rely on, other than God’s Word—and not just your own personal opinion, in regards to this issue:

[color=990000][b]False Teachers or Men of God? How are we to discern, how are we to tell the difference? Once we find out, should we tell others? What does God's Word, the Bible, tell us to do?

As Christian believers were are told to examine ourselves. In 2nd Corinthians 13:5 we are told: 5. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Does the Bible tells us to test those that say they are Christians by the Word of God that they supposedly teach from?
1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says: “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.” So we definitely should judge all things (movies, books, music, and behavior of people).

When the Bible says not to judge it is talking about the bad type of judging. So in order not to practice the bad kind of judging, we must understand the two types of judging.

Two Types of Judging
1. Discerning (Good Judging)
Identifying the spirit behind an action
2 Timothy 3:16-17 : “16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 4:2 says: “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Titus 2:15 says: “These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”

Ephesians 5:11 says: “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”

1 Corinthians 2:15-16 says” But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

So, believers should judge all matters and all issues.

I John 4:1 says: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” Believers should test the spirits behind a person’s action to see if the action brings glory to God.

Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament, judged someone in the church. See 1 Corinthians 5:1-13. Then see 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 to see where Paul encourages the church to forgive the person.

2. Condemning and Criticizing (Bad Judging)
Using people’s sin as an excuse to lower or belittle them.

Harsh punishment without encouragement to follow.

Cursing a person or prophesying destruction into their lives. Note: it is ok to warn someone of possible consequences, but it is not ok to say things which may discourage the person or lead them to believe that the worst is the only outcome they will have.

Sentencing with no mercy.

Correcting someone when guilty of the same thing.

People who practice the bad kind of judging often are guilty of the same sin they are using to belittle another person. Jesus addressed this scenario in Matthew 7:1-5 and Luke 6:41-42, and these are the verses which people sometimes twist in order to defend their sinful desires.

The problem is that people sometimes quote
Matthew 7:1 only which reads “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” (KJV), but one must also read verses 2-5 to understand the point Jesus was making. The point Jesus was making was not to judge someone of the same sin we have in our own lives. Another way to look at the point Jesus was making is by answering this question: How can a person help someone escape quicksand if that person is also stuck in the same quicksand?
Paul echoes the point Jesus was making in Romans 2:1-4. This passage reads: “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?” (KJV).

Christians should judge and Christians should not judge- both are true.

What makes judging right or wrong depends on the spirit, motive and attitude in which judging is being done. So, the conclusion is that Christians should judge the actions of other people, but Christians should not make conclusions about the degree of punishment that a person will receive from God. The only conclusion that a Christian can accurately make is that if a person does not accept God’s plan of salvation, that person will be separated from God throughout all eternity, because this is what the Bible tells us (see Revelation 20:11-15).

Bad Judgment Statement: “You are going to hell because of what you do.”

Good Judgment Statement: “God will help you with your problem and God wants to save you from spiritual death if you choose to let Him.”

If we are going to make a negative comment to a person about their behavior, we should be just as quick to give encouragement, and tell the person about the rewards of repentance.
God, who is the ultimate judge, is full of grace and mercy, so we should also be full of grace and mercy.

James 2:12-13 says: “So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”

As Christians we should remember and understand that we too were once lost.

Titus 3:3-5 says: “For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful,and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

[b]Non-Christians are unable to make sound judgments about Christians.

1 Corinthians 2:15-16 says: “But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

When people hear the word “judge” or “judgment” bad things usually come to mind, but often, good things come out of judgment. A judge rewards a person who has done the right thing. After death, everyone will face judgment. “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...” (Hebrews 9:27) . For non-believers, the judgment mentioned will be the Great White Throne judgment spoken of in Revelation 20:11-15; where all who trust their own good works for salvation are to be judged according to their works and Jesus will say "depart from me.", because the works of men cannot redeem them from their sins. Only God’s sacrifice can redeem us from our sin. People who put their trust in Jesus alone for their salvation will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ which is mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:10; where they will receive what is due to them according to what they did, but they will be told to enter into everlasting life because they are covered by the blood of God’s sacrifice- Jesus. For people who trusted God, their final judgment will be a good event, but non-believers will face a bad judgment.

People often do not come to God and receive salvation because they are afraid their sins will be exposed and they are afraid they will be judged (see John 3:19-21). They do not understand that God is full of grace and mercy and that it pleases Him when men confess their wrongs. Christians should also be full of grace and mercy, but this is not always the case. It is a shameful and sad situation when church people treat others like they are trash because
So, when we study the teachings of Christian Pastors and Teachers, we are commanded to compare their teachings to what the Bible teaches about the same things. In this way we can see- are the teaching truth, or teaching falsehood?[/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]Rick Warren is a false teacher who:

I. Denies The Holy Spirit (Jude 4 "the only Lord God")

In his book The Purpose-Driven Life, which is primarily written to Christians, on page 212 Warren writes:

"Let me be clear: If you're losing the battle against a persistent bad habit, an addiction, or a temptation, and you're stuck in a repeating cycle of good intention-failure-guilt, you will not get better on your own! You need the help of other people.

Here Warren denies the power of the Holy Spirit that is resident in every believer's life (John 7:39). In the context of speaking to believers, he says "You need the help of other people" in order to overcome "a persistent bad habit, an addiction, or a temptation." Scripture nowhere says any such thing. On the contrary, Scripture says,

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
(Galatians 5:22-23)

All any believer needs is the Holy Spirit, as God also says,

Walk by the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16)

As a believer walks by the Spirit of God he will have self-control, since this is part of the fruit of the Spirit, and he will not have sinful bad habits, or addictions.

In the context of Warren's statement above, Rick supports his statement with Ecclesiastes 4:9-10, but he misuses these verses. Ecclesiastes 4:9-10 is not speaking of the salvation that comes only through Christ (Acts 4:12). But, Warren deceitfully uses these verses and,

II. Denies Our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:1; Jude 4)

On the same page in The Purpose-Driven Life Warren writes,
God's plan for your growth and freedom includes other Christians. Authentic, honest fellowship is the antidote to your lonely struggle against those sins that won't budge.
The Bible never gives fellowship as an antidote against sin that won't budge. On the contrary, Jesus said,
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
(John 8:34-36)

Jesus declares that He is the antidote against sin. Scripture says to those who have Christ that "sin shall not have dominion over you" (Romans 6:14). Why? Because Jesus has set them free (John 8:31-34).

Yet, in denial of Jesus Christ and His HolyWord Rick Warren writes:
“Some problems are too ingrained, too habitual, and too big to solve on your own. You need a small group or an accountability partner who will encourage you, support you, pray for you, love you unconditionally; and hold you accountable”. (ibid., p. 213-214)

In other words, some sins are too hard for the Savior, Jesus Christ, to solve. "You need a small group." Yes indeed, you do need a small group if you do not have the Savior, and you want to end up in hell being cursed forever with your trust in man (Jeremiah 17:5). This is where Warren's "Purpose-Driven Life" leads. It leads to eternal death (Revelation 21:8). It is a Purpose-Driven Death, because the trust, the faith, is not in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, but rather in man and his man-made way of dealing with sin.

This is well illustrated by Saddleback's "Celebrate Recovery" program. Warren writes,

"At Saddleback Church we have seen the awesome power of this principle to break the grip of seemingly hopeless addictions and persistent temptations through a program we developed called Celebrate Recovery. (ibid., p. 213)"

Here it is admitted that a man-made ("we developed") program is used to "break the grip of . . . addictions." In other words, a man-made program has been developed to do what Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit does - "break the grip of" sin. This is a flat-out denial of our Lord Jesus Christ, as 2 Peter 2:1 and Jude 4 declare men like Warren will do.
Warren goes on and says,
"
In the past ten years over 5,000 lives have been set free from all kinds of habits, hurts, and addictions. Today the program is used in thousands of churches. I highly recommend it for your church. (ibid., p. 213)"

Jesus says He is the one who sets free (John 8:31-36). Warren lies and says his program sets free.

III. Denies The Power of Godliness (2 Timothy 3:5)

All of this reveals that Warren DENIES the power of godliness. When someone DENIES the Holy Spirit, and DENIES Jesus Christ, as Warren does, the fact of the matter is, they DENY the power of godliness; that is, the power that is resident in the salvation of Christ. Scripture is not unclear on this matter (e.g. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21). When Christ saves a person, they are set free from the dominating power of sin (John 8:31-34). They no longer live in a pattern of habitual sin. This distinguishes real believers from false believers, as 1 John 2:3-5 says,
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Likewise, Ephesians 5:5-6 says,
“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

Warren deceives with empty words by declaring that Christians would even have any need to be set free from addictions and "sins that won't budge" (ibid., p. 212). His lewdness (Jude 4) is even more manifest when one realizes that when Warren speaks of addictions and "sins that won't budge" he believes there are such things as Christian sexual perverts, Christian drunks, Christian drug addicts. (www.celebraterecovery.com/SmallGroups/chemdep.asp), etc..

This is particularly articulated by the words of one of Saddleback's pastors, John Baker, who declared himself to be an elder of Saddleback church and "a believer who struggles with alcoholism." In this same testimony Baker proclaimed concerning Celebrate Recovery,
Some of the groups include codependant relationships, eating disorders, smoking addiction, sexual and physical abuse victim's groups, groups for adult children of alcoholics, sexual and relationship addictions, and veteran's group for those dealing with post traumatic stress syndrome.

(www.celebraterecovery.com/johnb.asp, hard copy on file)

Then, speaking of these people, Baker says,
All of us have several things in common. We love Christ, we're willing to turn our lives over to Him, and we're praying that we can begin to break the cycle of dysfunction for our families.
Baker declares they "love Christ"! This is such a lie. None of them love Christ, because not only are they still lost (caught) in their sin, but they are in a man-made program to overcome their sin or problems. Therefore, they reveal their trust is in man (Jeremiah 17:5) and not in the Savior, the Rock of refuge (Psalm 31:2; 46:1; 94:22).

This lewdness goes so far as to include homosexuals! Homosexuals are included in their "sexual . . . addictions" mentioned above. In other words, Warren and Saddleback church believes there is such a thing as a homosexual Christian, which is totally absurd (Romans 1:18-32; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). This we know, because they openly admitted this as of June 22, 1999, and we have a hard copy of their files. But, as soon as we exposed this folly on the public sidewalks outside their church, they restricted access to these pages. This is what the web page said:

Celebrate Recovery is committed to help strengthen and support Christians who struggle with homosexual feelings and behaviors or who have a desire to leave the homosexual lifestyle.[/u] (old web address, http://web.archive.org/web/19990203041850/http://www.celebraterecovery.com/reclaim.htm, hard copy on file).

"Christians . . . who have a desire to leave the homosexual lifestyle" (i.e. christian homosexuals)? That is lewd! There is no such thing as a christian homosexual (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

Now, lest some fool argue, "Are you perfect?" Or, "All Christians struggle with sin." Warren is not talking about any struggles with sin that every Christian lives with the rest of their life (as in Romans 7). Warren promises a cure. He claims this Celebrate Recovery can set a person free. The problem is, he is speaking of the very freedom Christ offers (John 8:31-34), which, by the way, neither Warren nor his program can deliver. Anyone who follows his folly will never be free, because this deceit leads to nowhere but eternal death (2 Corinthians 11:14-15; Revelation 12:9; 21:8).
People are deceived by Warren, in part, because he mixes "Jesus" into his man-made program. As Warren states,
"You are going to see lives changed in dramatic ways. You are going to see hopeless marriages restored and people set free from all kinds of sinful habits, hang-ups, and hurts as they allow Jesus to be Lord in every area of their lives. (www.celebraterecovery.com/message.asp)
Salvation is only attained via submitting in every area of your life to Christ (Luke 14:26-33; Romans 10:9-10), and once this is truly done, Christ sets free from all kinds of sinful habits (John 8:31-34; Romans 10:10). No program or fellowship is needed or even helpful for this. Some might argue such a program is not needed, but can be helpful, but it is not helpful for any soul to be set free via a man-made program. Why? Because through such an approach, the trust is not truly in Christ, but in a program that cannot and will not truly save.

The only time Scripture describes a need for one another (i.e. fellowship), is in the context of the functioning of the body of Christ (e.g. 1 Corinthians 12:21), or the serious benefit of two or more in everyday living, as in Ecclesiastes 4:9-12. When it comes to having self-control and being saved from the dominating power of sin, it is Christ, and Christ alone who saves (Acts 4:12; 1 John 2:27).

IV. Denies The Fear of God

On page 95 of The Purpose-Driven Life Warren writes,
We obey God, not out of duty or fear or compulsion, but because we love him and trust that he knows what is best for us.
On page 228 he writes,
We don't serve God out of guilt or fear or even duty, but out of joy, and deep gratitude for what he's done for us.
To say that we don't serve God out of fear, is to direct people down the same damning path they have been on: "There is no fear of God before their eyes" (Romans 3:18).

Hebrews says, "Let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:28-29)

The Bible describes Godly fear as terror (Job 23:16; 31:23; 37:1; 2 Corinthians 5:11), trembling (1 Chronicles 16:30; Ezra 10:3; Psalm 96:9; 99:1; 114:7; Isaiah 66:2, 5), and being afraid (Psalm 76:7, 11; 89:7; 96:4; 119:120; 130:4). Warren says we are not to serve God out of fear, but this is a lie. Even Jesus served God out of fear, as it is written,
Who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear. (Hebrews 5:7)
Jesus Christ was heard because of His godly fear. You will not be heard, and you will not be saved from death, eternal death, if you don't serve God out of fear, because,
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death. (Proverbs 14:27)

You will not be turned away from the snares of death, if you do not serve God out of fear, because,
By the fear of the Lord one departs from evil. (Proverbs 16:6)
If you do not fear the Lord, you will not depart from evil, and you will therefore reap the wrath of God, as it is written,
I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. (Isaiah 13:11)
But, those who serve God out of fear, they shall have eternal life.
The fear of the Lord leads to life, and he who has it will abide in satisfaction; he will not be visited with evil. (Proverbs 19:23)
By humility and the fear of the Lord are riches and honor and life. (Proverbs 22:4)
Now, lest anyone think otherwise, believers are also to serve God out of love (Mark 12:30). The love of God and the fear of God are not mutually exclusive. The Bible clearly teaches both, and the Psalmist well illustrates both exist simultaneously (see Psalm 119:20; 97, 120). [For more on the fear of God, please see our report entitled, The True Fear of God.]

V. Denies The Wrath of God Upon ALL Who Live Ungodly

Consistent with his denial of the Holy Spirit, his denial of Christ, and his denial of the salvation of God, is Warren's denial of the wrath of God upon anyone who lives for themselves. On page 232 in The Purpose-Driven Life Rick writes,
The Bible warns unbelievers, "He will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves," [Romans 2:8] but for Christians it will mean a loss of eternal rewards.
This is such a destructive lie! It will not only mean a loss of eternal rewards, it will mean the loss of their eternal soul (Mark 8:36). God makes no distinction whatsoever upon those who "live for themselves." He will pour out his anger and wrath on all those who live for themselves. Note the context of the passage to which Warren refers:
He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps sinning - for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good. (Romans 2:7-10 NLT)
True Christians do not live for themselves, as Romans later declares,
None of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. (Romans 14:7-8)
Therefore, a true Christian would never come under such wrath, lose any rewards, or anything else, because if they did, if they did live for themselves, they would no longer be a Christian (Romans 14:7-8, "none"), and Romans 2:8 would be fulfilled even upon them (Ezekiel 3:20; 33:12-13; See our report on Eternal Security for more info).

VI. Denies James 4:4
Consistent with all of the above is Warren's denial of James 4:4. On page 297 in his Purpose-Driven Death book Warren writes,
You have a choice to make. You will be either a world-class Christian or a worldly Christian.
Worldly Christians look to God primarily for personal fulfillment. They are saved, but self-centered. They love to attend concerts and enrichment seminars, but you would never find them at a missions conference because they aren't interested. Their prayers focus on their needs, blessings, and happiness. It's a "me-first" faith: How can God make my life more comfortable? They want to use God for their purposes instead of being used for his purposes.
James 4:4 says,
Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
James declares even a simple desire to be a friend of the world makes one an enemy of God. Warren speaks of a "Christian" who is downright worldly. In either case, both the "Christian" who simply desires to be a friend of the world, or the "Christian" who is a friend of the world (i.e. worldly), both are an enemy of God. They are in no way saved, for this is what God has to say about His enemies:
Your hand will find all Your enemies; Your right hand will find those who hate You. You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them. (Psalm 21:8-9)
For behold, Your enemies, O Lord, for behold, Your enemies shall perish. (Psalm 92:9)
The Lord reigns; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad! Clouds and darkness surround Him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne. A fire goes before Him, and burns up His enemies round about. (Psalm 97:1-3; see also Deuteronomy 32:41-42; Isaiah 1:24; 42:13; 59:18; 66:6, 14)

VII. Denies 1 Timothy 4:1-3
In The Purpose-Driven Life Warren reveals that he does not believe Catholics have departed from the faith, give heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, and speak lies in hypocrisy (1 Timothy 4:1-3). He quotes Catholics as if they were in the faith. For example, on page 88 Warren writes,
The classic book on learning how to develop a constant conversation with God is Practicing the Presence of God. It was written in the seventeenth century by Brother Lawrence, a humble cook in a French monastery. Brother Lawrence was able to turn even the most commonplace and menial tasks, like preparing meals and washing dishes, into acts of praise and communion with God.
So Warren describes this Catholic (www.catholicapologetics.0catch.com), who according to God was involved with demons (1 Timothy 4:1-3), as one who had communion with God. Paul said,
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons. (1 Corinthians 1:21)
There is no way this man was anything but a liar and a wicked man with demons in his life (1 Timothy 4:1-3). Yet Warren recommends his book. Why? Because Warren rejects 1 Timothy 4:1-3 (as well as 2 John 9, etc.).

In this same book, Warren cites "St. John of the Cross" (a Catholic, p. 108), Madame Guyon (a Catholic mystic, p. 193), and Mother Teresa (p. 125, 231). It is apparent Warren has no problem with those who are not in the faith and are involved with demons. Of course, this fits well with Warren since he follows the worldly wisdom of the AA 12 step approach in dealing with sin in his Celebrate Recovery program.

VIII. Denies The Gospel

The 12 step approach came from another man involved with demons, Bill Wilson (see Pass It On, p. 275f). Baker in his testimony notes,
The Christ-centered 12 steps are included because so many of those attending Celebrate Recovery have come from a 12 step background. You will see how the 12 steps fit and are covered by Celebrate Recovery's Eight Recovery Principles, based on the Beatitudes. (www.celebraterecovery.com/johnb.asp, hard copy on file)

Baker lies in hypocrisy when he says it is "Christ-centered," because the very fact that they feel they need 12 steps (or 8 steps) to go through to overcome the power of addictive sin proves it is not only not Christ-centered, but it is a rejection of Christ. If it was Christ-centered it (Celebrate Recovery) would not exist, because it would not be needed; because Christ would have already set free (John 8:31-34) all who come to Him (John 1:12-13).
Celebrate Recovery is another gospel, and Warren, Baker, and all who promote such a thing are to be cursed because of it (Galatians 1:8-9).

IX. Denies True Humility

On page 148 of Warren's death book, after quoting Philippians 2:3-4, he writes,
Humility is not thinking less of yourself; it is thinking of yourself less. (ibid., p. 148)
Warren speaks directly against the very words he quotes. Warren quotes out of the NCV in which it says,
Give more honor to others than to yourselves.
The KJV reads, "In but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." Giving more honor to others than to yourself and esteeming others better than yourself is certainly thinking less of yourself. Warren perverts what humility is and diverts people away from it. His warped view of humility is further displayed when he writes,
Humble people are so focused on serving others, they don't think of themselves. (ibid.)

This also is a lie, since the very verse Warren quotes states,
"Do not be interested only in your own life, but be interested in the lives of others". (NCV)

In other words, you can be interested in your own life, just don't be interested only in your own life."

This perverted teaching on humility goes well (for deceiving people) with his self-worth teaching. On page 63 of The Purpose-Driven Life Warren promotes self-worth. He writes,
Bringing enjoyment to God, living for his pleasure, is the first purpose of your life. When you fully understand this truth, you will never again have a problem with feeling insignificant. It proves your worth. (bold added)
This is a lie. Anyone given the awesome privilege to bring enjoyment to God (e.g. Proverbs 15:8; 2 Corinthians 5:9) should realize any such privilege is totally by God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-10) and has nothing to do with them (Romans 9:11-22). It has nothing to do with any worth. It has everything to do with God's great mercy and kindness to undeserving unworthy sinners (Romans 5:8-10).

Someone may argue, "But Warren speaks of the worth God places upon a person, as Warren writes immediately after this:

If you are that important to God, and he considers you valuable enough to keep with him for eternity, what greater significance could you have?"

What about the people God has chosen to spend eternity in hell (Proverbs 16:4)? Are they worth less to God? Are they worthless? Are they insignificant? Does not the Scripture say, "For God so loved the world . . . " (John 3:16)? Are the elect somehow worth more?

When it comes to salvation, this whole "worth" and "significance" push by Warren is not found anywhere in Scripture, but what is found is the fact that God chooses people for salvation completely apart from anything to do with them. Election, salvation, is according to "the purpose of God," not some worth factor (Romans 9:11-23).

Warren's teaching gets people to focus on themselves (your worth, your significance), and Scripture gets people to focus on God, and His great love toward mankind (Ephesians 2:4). Warren's teaching is perverted, and encourages people away from true humility. Scripture is not perverted, and encourages people toward real humility, as it is written,
Lord, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him! Man is like to vanity: his days are as a shadow that passeth away.. (Psalm 144:3-4)
Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing. (Isaiah 40:15)
All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity. (Isaiah 40:17)
With Isaiah 40:15-17 in view, it should be clear that the value God places upon men (e.g. Matthew 6:26; 10:31; Luke 12:7, 24) is a matter of God's mercy and kindness and has nothing to do with man's "significance." As David wrote, “my goodness extendeth not to thee;” (Psalm 16:2)

In conclusion, Rick Warren is a false teacher. This is my conclusion, based upon Rick Warrens own words, in his own book the “Purpose Driven Life” as compared to God's Word, the standard, the Bible! He is also a Pied Piper, leading millions of other dear baby Christians, who have been deceived by him, right into the lake of fire. [/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
HI everyone,


Waltern, you said this,


"Believers should test the spirits behind a person’s action to see if the action brings glory to God."



You have been confronted on these formus by moderators and other users mulitple times about this same thing, including this thread.


What has been your response?





You also wrote,



'Bad Judgment Statement: “You are going to hell because of what you do.”'



And then you finished what you wrote by saying,




"He is also a Pied Piper, leading millions of other dear baby Christians, who have been deceived by him, right into the lake of fire."

 2009/9/16 20:56









 Re:

I'd just like to say something of why I myself would post to threads of this nature.

Last Spring, when Todd Bentley was doing his thing in FL, I was on another forum where most of the members were exposing the truth behind the man and because of that, it made it into all the Search engines and many came onto that forum to either get help or argue - yet most who came on to argue - later found that they had been deceived by the man.

I seldom get into these type things unless the person being discussed is worth the slam-dunks one gets from exposing them. Bentley was worth the ribbing we took, to pull the batch we did out of that deception and the only other that I've known that is worth my time and whatever else goes into this is Warren.

I've seen Pastors change their mind about him once they did the research and many others realize the danger of following a man who's theology is off and the direction of his work is headed them down a path that they never imagined.

I believe these are the last days and the most dangerous will be the most cunning.

There is no excuse to not Research for one's self.
When anyone says something that I question - I open the Search Page and type in a few words and I have everything I could ever read to either confirm it or debunk it. I have little respect for those who mock others without researching the topic themselves - unless they are very young and need to be taken by the hand.

I have more respect for men that are a bit more on the cautious side with the sheep than those that allow "anything to go" just to keep numbers.

I expect to be protected by men as a woman!

 2009/9/16 21:00
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

HI Waltern,


About this,


'Well, here we are again. Please provide something other than your own opinion on this issue that supports your position that no “Christians” should ever be examined by other Christains, to see if they are truly what they proclaim to be--"Christian Believers"”'


Walter, I didn't say anything like that.



You are here teaching about the nescessity of Christians judging and examining other Christians.


You have been, and continue to be, judged and examined by the believers on this forum regarding your posts here and I asked you what your response has been.





Quote:
Here you go, one more time. Lets see how you respond to God’s Word, to God’s Requirement. If you do not agree with Scripture, then please post from whatever authority you rely on, other than God’s Word—and not just your own personal opinion, in regards to this issue:





This was not nescessary, but it [b]underscores[/b] what so many have been saying to you for so long now.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/9/16 21:02Profile









 Re:


To ChrisJd:

I receive negative responses to my posts from "liberal" Christians. "Conservative" Christians are those that support the majority of my positions, the majority of my posts.

Of course, this dichotomy has been in play since the beginning.


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
HI Waltern,


About this,


'Well, here we are again. Please provide something other than your own opinion on this issue that supports your position that no “Christians” should ever be examined by other Christains, to see if they are truly what they proclaim to be--"Christian Believers"”'


Walter, I didn't say anything like that.



You are here teaching about the nescessity of Christians judging and examining other Christians.


You have been, and continue to be, judged and examined by the believers on this forum regarding your posts here and I asked you what your response has been.





Quote:
Here you go, one more time. Lets see how you respond to God’s Word, to God’s Requirement. If you do not agree with Scripture, then please post from whatever authority you rely on, other than God’s Word—and not just your own personal opinion, in regards to this issue:





This was not nescessary, but it [b]underscores[/b] what so many have been saying to you for so long now.

 2009/9/16 21:34
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again everyone.


Waltern,


"I receive negative responses to my posts from "liberal" Christians. "Conservative" Christians are those that support the majority of my positions, the majority of my posts."



I don't think that the content of your posts has been at issue for the most part, but rather the character of them, and the way you communicate to others. This has nothing to do with being conservative or liberal.





Quote:
Of course, this dichotomy has been in play since the beginning.




The assumption that comes across in this statement is that you are right in what you believe and have no need of correction, as much as the Bible is right, and those that appear to oppose you are aligned with Satan.



This is much of what I recall others, including a moderator of these forums question you on, that is, your being above correction and not recieving it or hearing it from others:


"The way of a fool [i]is[/i] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [i]is[/i] wise."


- Proverbs 12:15(KJV)





Another thing that I recall others challenging you about often is humility, or the lack of it that they percieve in your posts.



"Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised [i]is[/i] wisdom."


- Proverbs 13:10(KJV)



Another thing that I recall is a rashness in the statements that you make about others, without first asking them to clarify what they mean:



In this thread, you said to me



'Well, here we are again. Please provide something other than your own opinion on this issue that supports your position that no “Christians” should ever be examined by other Christains, to see if they are truly what they proclaim to be--"Christian Believers'


Yet I gave neither an opinion nor contradicted what you said but qouted you. Not only was this rash it was incoherent, and not sound(Tit 2:8).



Again, Waltern, you said before,


"Believers should test the spirits behind a person’s action to see if the action brings glory to God."



You have been, and continue to be, judged and examined by other believers on these forums as to the way you are communicating to them.


What has been your response?


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/9/16 22:26Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I receive negative responses to my posts from "liberal" Christians.



WOW!

So a liberal Christian is not "worthy" of your love and grace? Remember brother "love covers a MULTITUDE of sins", and if a Christian is your brother or sister, are they not worthy of love and grace or can you write them off because they don't measure up to your ideals(as if you are the Judge)?

Do you pray for Brother Warren? and yes I call him a brother because he names Christ, the other things are not salvation issues, they are secondary.

Let me ask you this, what difference does it make if Warren does what he does? Can you stop him?

Has the Lord allowed him to do what he is doing? If so, then lay off and let the Lord deal with him. You and I are not the Lord, we don't know what is going on in his(Warren's) heart, and again as I said before, I am not endorsing Warren at all. But I get sick of the paranoia and fear tactics used to disgrace men.

It is His Church and the gates of Hell WILL NOT prevail against it. Don't forget that as many seem to quite often.

Trust me if Warren can destroy the Church, then we have bigger issues to deal with.

You may take issue with Warren's way of doing things and that is fine(I do too), but attack his theology, not him. And yes as one who holds to what is termed Calvinism, I would question many of Warren's theological beliefs, but NEVER to the point of casting him into hell, which is not for us to do.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2009/9/16 22:35Profile









 Re:


If you find out that Rick Warren is helping to set up the one world religion - would that cause you to still call him Brother and come against those who are trying to warn Christians?

On page 1 I posted -

Rick Warren sits on the Advisory Board of the Tony Blair Faith Foundation.
http://www.tonyblairfaithfoundation.org/about-us/who-we-are/advisory-council.html


I have more links than a page will fit on Warren's Soteriology, Eschatology, Prop 8, Dominionism, you name it - but I'll just ask if you'll look down this one page, at just the titles and see how many times you see Tony Blair's name.

http://www.understandthetimes.org/topics/oneworldreligion.shtml

[Roger Oakland is one who visited or may still visit Costa Mesa CC whenever he is in that area - so he is a friendly kinda guy.]


Thanks!

 2009/9/16 23:05
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I believe Walter's assessment of Rick Warren's teaching is correct in the light of Scripture.

Quote:
Warren's teaching gets people to focus on themselves (your worth, your significance), and Scripture gets people to focus on God, and His great love toward mankind (Ephesians 2:4). Warren's teaching is perverted, and encourages people away from true humility. Scripture is not perverted, and encourages people toward real humility, as it is written, Lord, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him! Man is like to vanity: his days are as a shadow that passeth away.. (Psalm 144:3)


[b]However, this misdirection from God-centeredness to man-centeredness is not a new problem. It is something that has been around for sometime and actually predates the very birth of Rick Warren.[/b]

As evidence of this, I paste below two things that we see at the top of the SI page every time we visit the forum:

[b]Become a Pastor
With an Online Pastoral Degree.[/b] Study Online, in your spare time.

Ministry Classes Online
[b]Become a Master of Divinity from an Accredited College.[/b] Learn more!

[b]It seems pastors and men of divine character have been "man-made" for a long time now.[/b]

 2009/9/16 23:11Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Roger Oakland



I am sorry, but that alone was reason for me not to read it. He and Dave Hunt both seem to enjoy misrepresenting people or misquoting people to get their points across.

Come on people. Take a deep breath, and just ask yourself this question-

How does this affect me and my walk with the Lord? Then go from that wonderful state of peace from the Lord and live your life.

Let Roger Oakland and Dave Hunt and the others who fear monger and accuse and misrepresent people find their boogeymen and hidden meanings to everything, but remember this one thing, "God HAS NOT given us a spirit of fear".

Preach the Gospel and do what you can in your area, and let the Lord handle His Church. Correct those in your local Church if you must, but do it in love and grace, not from pride or arrogance.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2009/9/16 23:31Profile





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