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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 The Law & Justification

[b]"Jesus paid our debt". Did he?
- What is the debt?[/b]

Our debt was to take on the charges which were given. We were to pay the debt of the judgment against us. The payment of the debt is your life.

[b]Gal 3:13[/b] [color=990000]Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.[/color]
The curse is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."(Gal.3:10)

We were Purchased/redeemed from the judgment of sin which is our forgiveness (Ephesians 1:7 & 1Corinthians 6:20 & 7:23).

[b]-To whom did He make payment?[/b]

He made payment to the law. Because it was the law which was calling for restitution.

[b]-If He paid our debt, are we really forgiven?
Foregiveness is the clearing of debt. If God forgave us, why, then does the debt need to be payed?[/b]

Think of it as two entities that needed to be delt with.
The Law was broken and needed to be satisfied.
God was offended and needed to be appeased.

The law was broken and law can not forgive, the law must be satisfied.
God will forgive and He does, God was offended (not broken) and must be appeased(not satisfied).
When He forgave us, he was appeased by Christ's atonement and He paid our ransom to satisfy the law.

We offended God and He forgave us of the offense against Him.
Then he also had mercy toward us and paid our ransom of which we were held slave to.

It was a law to be satisfied and a ransom to be paid.
A God to be appeased and a God which is to forgive.

Concerning Matthew 18:23-27

Was payment made to the king for this man's debt?
No. The king forgave the debt.

[b]Some one may ask:[/b]

Quote:
If I owe $10,000 to my credit card company, and my father pays the bill, is my bill forgiven, or paid off?
[b]Or[/b]
If I owe $10,000 to my credit card company, and nobodt pays my bill, but the credit card company says "Don't worry about it. The bill doesn't need to be paid" - Then I'd be forgiven.

In Matthew 18:23, there was no law being transgressed, but a King being offended by a debt not being payed.

However, the forgiveness of the debt was forgiven, but the King still lost money, it would be as if He, himself payed the debt.

 2009/9/15 14:55Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: The Law & Justification

The term redeemed means that a ransom was paid for us. In 1 Cor. 6:20 it was us that were bought with a price.

Here is my question. Given that the church through the ages has used the analogy of a debt being paid, was it my debt that was paid? To whom did I owe the debt? I'm not sure these questions are being framed the way I am thinking. I might ask, "Is the analogy of me owing a debt and Jesus paying is a Biblically sound analogy or is there much more to it than this?

Obviously I could not atone for my own sins. The atonement was made for my sins by the Blood of Jesus Christ. But was it the payment of a debt required by law? The law was only a shadow of the holiness of God and the righteousness that could never be attained on one's own effort. Does it go much deeper even than a payment of a price required by law?


_________________
Travis

 2009/9/15 17:21Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
twayneb wrote:
I might ask, "Is the analogy of me owing a debt and Jesus paying is a Biblically sound analogy or is there much more to it than this?

There is much more to it than the usual "Christian jargon" that we use so much with out actually thinking about what it means &/or how it applies.

Quote:
Obviously I could not atone for my own sins. The atonement was made for my sins by the Blood of Jesus Christ. But was it the payment of a debt required by law?

When Jesus finished all that needed to done one the cross, This is what He did:
[b]1.[/b] Curse of the law to be taken away (2Corinth 5:21, Gal 3:13).
[b](a)[/b] For the setting free of the captive slave of the law(Luke 4:18, Galatians 5:1).
[b]2.[/b] Blood to be shed for the cleansing/purging from the guilt and the clearing of the conscience of the guilt of sin (Ephesians 1:7 & Colossians 1:14)
[b](a)[/b] purchasing/redeeming from the judgment of sin which is our forgiveness(Ephesians 1:7 & 1 Corinthians 6:20 & 7:23).

Sin is the braking of God's law.
The law needs to be satisfied for justice to be maintained.
There needed to be away for God to be justified in setting us free from the curse

Quote:
The law was only a shadow of the holiness of God and the righteousness that could never be attained on one's own effort.

The law is not founded in mere randomness, but in the Personhood of God, it is a representation of who He is and a part of the foundation of reality

The law was added because of transgressions, it exists for the reason of making unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful. In other words, the law exists so that our unlawful affections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific commands of the law.
The purpose of the law is to teach one of the character of the Lawgiver also to guide us and to guard us while directing us to mercy of the Lawgiver, (Romans 7:13, Galatians 3:19,24)

Quote:
Does it go much deeper even than a payment of a price required by law?

Yes!
Sin is not only judicial, but also personal against a holy God.

All mankind has brought damaged to Gods character; or tainted His holy Name by braking His Law, disobeying His Commandments, rebelling against His Word & authority.

Sin insults God to a degree that His character is maligned and He is defamed and virtually dethroned by the offender.

Other than braking the law, we did not sin in away as to owe God a debt as in the form of a sum, but in the way of disbelief and unfaithfulness, which deems God to be a liar on our behalf and in doing so, we destroy His character; this is elevating ourselves over God and putting ourselves in His place. We owe God the repair or renewal of His character which we maligned.

Whenever anyone sins, they are transgressing what they know to be true (that there is a law which is being broken) which proclaims that they are autonomous, self governing and in no need of support from anyone &/or anything apart from them selves. They are basically saying, "I am that I am". Doing this they are opposing and exalting themselves above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that they deem themselves as God (2Thessalonians 2:4).

 2009/9/15 18:05Profile









 Re: The Law & Justification

Basically, redemption is collective, while salvation is individual. Christ redeemed humanity collectively from slavery to sin and from the debt of punishment that mankind, as a whole, owed due to sin. Every person, Christian or non-Christian, is redeemed because he is a member of the human race. Salvation is the application of redemption to individuals. A person can choose to reject the graces won for him by Christ even though he has been redeemed.

 2009/9/19 2:16





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