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HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3165


 Re:

Dear Chris and Chris,

Have you asked the Lord to show you the truth found in not resisting evil?

When He shows you, watch for the difference in what happens when you resist vs. when you do not. It is like the difference between night and day.

These arguments that you are using sound like you do not think that the Lord is in control - that He will put you in a position of having to break the law. Is this not unbelief? Do you not believe that He is protecting you? Do you think that He would require that you kill someone to protect your family? Do you not believe that He is protecting your family? If you do not believe that He is watching over you - that He is in control of all things, then I suppose that it is best that you resist.

EDIT: No, it is never best to resist for it only empowers the evil.

 2009/12/18 18:36Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.

One thing that we can observe is that in a war of words there is retaliation and resistance, even among the spiritual.

The end all and be all, the nuclear weapon if you will, of those who escalate and retaliate in the war of words is to question the spirituality of others. Or to suggest that they have missed it from God.



_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/18 20:42Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Dear Heartsong,

about this,


Quote:
When He shows you, watch for the difference in what happens when you resist vs. when you do not. It is like the difference between night and day.





I thought earlier of another story from my personal experience to perhaps share.



About a year ago I was taking a young man that was a new beleiver with me to share the Gospel at night on the weekends in the city. One night as we were about to go home, he decides out of nowhere that he wanted to go over to a nearby park. I reluctantly followed him and when we got there, there was a group of young people hanging around. They had been drinking. I said something to them about it, and one of them noticed my friend that was with me.

He acts like he knew him and questions him very sharply about something that had happened before. And then, very much unadvisedly, the new beleiver that was with me makes a comment that set him off. And in a moment they are in a conflict.


The young man shoved him, and then my friend shoved him back. Immediately I stepped in standing in front of him told him that was not our way. He told me later that as soon as I said that he knew it was right and knew that he could not continue with that.

While he may have settled down, the situation only got worse, because now there was a group of about twenty kids surrounding us and they were not talking about being nice to us.


After much gentle speaking and a somewhat helpfull person who said he was a Christian, the situation diffused and we were able to leave.


The way that my younger friend responded was not the right way to resist evil, and just like I think the Lord was teaching us(in the Sermon on the Mount), it only worked to escalate the problem. But, I think that I can say by God's grace, we did eventually resist evil the right way, with soft answers to wrath, and assuring them that we had no intention of fighting with them.



But now, if a Police officer had come upon the same situation, or if it had become violent, it wouldn't have been appropriate for him to resist the evil the same way. The gun that he carries at his side is an ever visible sign that he is authorised to resist evil, even with force. And Paul says he gets his authorisation to do so, from God.




[i]edited to correct spelling and for clarity[/i]


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/12/18 21:02Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear HeartSong,

I have tried to stay out of this thread, however I must say that your implication that those who disagree with this idea of non-resistance are lacking somehow in faith is uncalled for and erroneous.

Taking action to right a wrong, or to prevent an injustice, or to defend the helpless is act of obedience to the teachings of God, not a sign of lack of faith.

The instruction to resist evil and to defend the helpless and the poor is everywhere in the Bible. It is a teaching that is interwoven all throughout the old and new testaments. The singular verse that says to not resist evil, along with accompanying verses, are exaggerated hyperbole given by the Lord to emphasize the depths of love and forbearance that must be exercised by those who are led by the Spirit under the new covenant.

The verses in Mt 5:39-42 are not literal instructions but hyperbole to emphasize the greater levels of righteousness expected of those led by the Spirit. At the beginning of the sermon on the mount, Jesus taught that under the new covenant (Spirit), his disciples must exceed the righteousness of those Pharisees under the old covenant (Law).

We are clearly instructed in the Bible to prove our faith through action:

[i]Jas 2:14-17 [color=CC3300]"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."[/color][/i]

Resisting evil with action is faithful obedience. The person who has the opportunity to act to defend the helpless, to feed the hungry, or to correct injustice, but decides to do nothing because he or she "believes that God is able to provide, protect and defend them himself" is the one who needs to reflect on what true Biblical faith is like.

[i]Mt 7:24 [color=CC3300]“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.[/color]

Isa 1:17 [color=CC3300]"learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow."[/color]

Pr 31:8-9 [color=CC3300]“Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."[/color]

Isa 58:6-9 [color=CC3300]“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter — when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard. Then you will call, and the LORD will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I."[/color][/i]

God expects his children to rise to the occasion and act, this is very clear in the Bible. Those who don't understand this need to read more of Scripture.

 2009/12/18 21:08Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3165


 Re:

Quote:
The verses in Mt 5:39-42 are not literal instructions but hyperbole to emphasize the greater levels of righteousness expected of those led by the Spirit.


The words of Jesus are hyperbole? This is not possible. Truth is truth. Jesus is truth. The words of Jesus are truth. Jesus is the Word.


HYPER'BOLE, n. hyper'boly. [Gr. excess, to throw beyond,to exceed.]

In rhetoric, a figure of speech which expresses much more or less than the truth, or which represents things much greater or less, better or worse than they really are.



Your examples say that we are to feed and clothe the poor - on this we agree. This is not resisting evil, it is doing good. Doing good dispels evil.

 2009/12/19 0:36Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:
The words of Jesus are hyperbole? This is not possible. Truth is truth. Jesus is truth. The words of Jesus are truth. Jesus is the Word.


Of course it is entirely possible. Jesus liked to speak in parables and he spoke using literary devices, or figures of speech, many times. In the sermon on the mount, he said:

[i]Mt 5:29-30 [color=CC3300]"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."[/color][/i]

In Luke, Jesus taught:

[i]Lk 14:26 [color=CC3300]“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.[/color][/i]

If we are to take these words literally, and not as figures of speech, then I submit that almost all obedient believers should be missing eyes and limbs, and we should forsake all our families outright. Some of these passages are from the very same sermon of Christ that encompass Mt 5:39-42. Are we to be selective in our acceptance of his teachings based on what fits with what we want to do? Are we to woodenly take everything literally? I think not.

The sermon on the mount is deep teaching and should not be taken at face value. One way to determine if a passage is to be taken literally, or not, is to ask: Is this teaching repeated in other parts of the Bible? Plucking out the eyes/cutting off the limbs and giving way to evil are not taught elsewhere in the Bible. These are hyperbole to stress the greater point of exceeding the righteousness demanded by the Law through the Spirit.

To be more specific, the hyperbole of plucking out the eyes tells us that we must hate sin even more under the new covenant.

The hyperbole of not resisting evil tells us that we must exercise greater patience, forbearance and love under the new covenant; for the rest of the Bible tells us that we must fight evil with all our might wherever it may be found.

The hyperbole to hate one's own parents and family actually means that our love for God should so far exceed our love for our own "loved ones" that it will be as if we hated them (but not actually hate them); for the rest of the Bible teaches us to honor our parents and care for our family.

The Bible is also abundantly clear that the disciples of Christ are to act in obedience to him at the risk of their very lives; not to sit passively and expect God to do everything for us (unless he directly instructs us to stand aside). For it is by our action that our faith is proven, not by our inaction.

[i]Jas 1:25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, [b]not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it[/b]—he will be blessed in what he does.[/i]

 2009/12/19 2:01Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4527


 Re:

Hi HeartSong...

Quote:
Have you asked the Lord to show you the truth ...


Of course! Why would we even respond unless we have asked the Lord about the truth in this matter? I don't think that we could make this any more clear to you! We have stated repeatedly in this thread in the other threads about this subject that we have prayerfully studied and considered these things. However, our prayerful study and consideration has simply led us to a different perspective on this issue.
Quote:
These arguments that you are using sound like you do not think that the Lord is in control...


How did you arrive to such a conclusion? That is just...well...incorrect.
Quote:
...that He will put you in a position of having to break the law.

Law? Which law? The Law of Moses? State or federal law? The law of walking before God with a clear conscience? The "law" of taking care of the needs of my household? There is NO LAW that emphatically says that a believer cannot defend their family members or serve in the military. If it were so "clear cut," God would have said so. And yet, Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the other apostles NEVER told any soldier to quit the military (at least, not in the Word of God).
Quote:
Is this not unbelief? Do you not believe that He is protecting you? Do you think that He would require that you kill someone to protect your family? Do you not believe that He is protecting your family?

Unbelief? Actually, I fully believe that God can protect me. I also believe that I will die if I stand in front of a train. But, to be clear, this isn't about "me." This is about whether or not I see any Scriptural prohibition against defending my wife...or children.

For every great story of a person who is supernaturally protected by God from evil, I can recite stories of innocent people (and believers) who were NOT supernaturally protected (in a physical sense). Some of these are detailed in Hebrews 11...where people were tortured, stoned, sawn asunder, flogged and slain by the sword. Paul was flogged, beaten and stoned several times. But, again, I simply do not see any sort of ultimate Scriptural prohibition against defending my family (or even serving in the military), regardless of how some might "look down" upon me or think that my view might be "unspiritual." I have even read through rather lengthy discourses about this matter (including in this very thread), and it hasn't caused me to see it any differently. And and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/12/19 3:14Profile









 Re: Pacifist NOT



Dear HeartSong:

I think that we should take the whole counsel of God on this issue of non-violence.

As much as I disagree with ccchhhrrriiisss on every issue, I agree with him on this one.

Why is it that pacifists are always trying to convince everyone else to be pacifists, and they never use the whole Counsel of God to try and convince them? The various threads on pacifism, that have appeared on Sermonindex run forever. Not too long ago someone that holds your position on this issue posted an entire book on this subject, that ended up going nowhere.

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

HeartSong wrote:
Quote:
The verses in Mt 5:39-42 are not literal instructions but hyperbole to emphasize the greater levels of righteousness expected of those led by the Spirit.


The words of Jesus are hyperbole? This is not possible. Truth is truth. Jesus is truth. The words of Jesus are truth. Jesus is the Word.


HYPER'BOLE, n. hyper'boly. [Gr. excess, to throw beyond,to exceed.]

In rhetoric, a figure of speech which expresses much more or less than the truth, or which represents things much greater or less, better or worse than they really are.



Your examples say that we are to feed and clothe the poor - on this we agree. This is not resisting evil, it is doing good. Doing good dispels evil.

 2009/12/19 3:39
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3165


 Re:

Dear Chris, Leo and now Waltern,

I do not "look down" upon you - and your spiritual condition is between you and God.

The time is short. Things are changing in this land at a rapid pace and anything short of the hand of God is not going to stop it. What we once thought to be true, will soon no longer be true. It is already happening.

Those that trust in the Lord will be able to stand. Those that do not know how to rely upon Him will fall. There is no way that we can stand against Satan in our own strength. The only way that Satan can be defeated is by the love of Christ.

There is a battle raging but it is not the kind of battle that can be won with our guns - it is a battle that needs to be fought upon our knees. This battle is for the souls of men. Shooting the man will not stop the evil, it will only stop the man. The enemy has plenty more to send forth.

It is quite possible that it will be our own military and/or police that will be sent forth to take out the Christians. What will you do if it is your own little girl staring at the end of the barrel of your gun saying "I pick Jesus." Will you kill, or be killed?

God bless you all, and may He have mercy on our souls.

 2009/12/19 5:53Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear HeartSong,

Please understand that I say this out of love and concern for you.

Quote:
The only way that Satan can be defeated is by the love of Christ.


You are mistaken in your thinking. You should spend more time reading God's word instead of meditating on your own romantic notions of what God's will is. Love is the power by which we are won to Christ, and it can win other people to Christ; but we can never defeat Satan by loving him.

[i]Eph 6:11-18
Put on the full armor of God so that you can [b]take your stand against the devil’s schemes[/b]. For our [b]struggle[/b] is not against flesh and blood, but [b]against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil[/b] in the heavenly realms. Therefore [b]put on the full armor of God[/b], so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to [b]stand your ground[/b], and after you have done everything, to stand. [b]Stand firm[/b] then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, [b]take up the shield[/b] of faith, with which you can [b]extinguish all the flaming arrows[/b] of the evil one. Take the [b]helmet[/b] of salvation and the [b]sword of the Spirit[/b], which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, [b]be alert[/b] and always keep on praying for all the saints.[/i]

The battle, although spiritual in nature, is to be fought as warriors -- through action and courage, armor and weapons; not through inaction and passivity -- this is clear in the above passage.

(Edited to add the 4 words that follow) See the above passage: love is not a weapon to be wielded against Satan. It is not part of the armor of God. Our weapons against evil are: truth, righteousness, the gospel of peace, faith, our salvation, the word of God, and prayer. With these weapons we are to fight Satan and defeat him.

Scripture teaches that our love is to be given to God first, and our neighbors (people) next. Anyone who says that we should love Satan, or love evil in order to overcome them is a false teacher; anyone who says that we should just sit by and allow them to have their way without resisting them with all our might is a false teacher.

Quote:
Shooting the man will not stop the evil, it will only stop the man. The enemy has plenty more to send forth.


Maybe so. But if shooting the man will free the oppressed, defend the fatherless, or protect those whom God has placed in your care, then God's purpose is fulfilled and it is your Christian duty to do it. Whom would you love more and whom should you protect? The follower of the devil or the followers of God?

Quote:
What will you do if it is your own little girl staring at the end of the barrel of your(sic) gun saying "I pick Jesus." Will you kill, or be killed?


I would defend my child to the best of my ability. If necessary, I would kill or be killed. I would give my life doing what God has instructed me to do.

Quote:
God bless you all, and may He have mercy on our souls.


Thanks for your kind sentiment.

 2009/12/19 12:08Profile





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