| Re: Israel Set in Their Own Land|
I have been doing a verse by verse study through Isaiah. One of the things I have noticed is the many promises to Jacob and Israel. [b]Many of these seem to be aimed more at the New Testament body of believers rather than the physical present nation of Israel.[/b]
Well brother I would say that you are right on the money! Peter agrees with you, and that's always a good sign.
1 Peter 1 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Now pay close attention to what he says next about this salvation of "ours".
[b]1 Peter 1:10
Of which salvation [b]the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:[/b]
This is talking about old teatament prophets, and not just Isaiah. What did they do?
The prophesied of the GRACE that should come unto you.
Who is "you"? According to the address of he letter it is the "strangers scattered abroad". To a Jew like Peter, "strangers" are Gentiles. I believe Peter is addressing the Gentile believers.
So Peter is saying that the Old Tesament prophets prophesied of the grace that should come unto the Gentiles. Therefor could their prophecy be mainly about the Gentile church?
Now again notice closely what it says these Old Testamant prophets also did.
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
As you were seeing and stated, that as you went through Isaiah verse by verse, you saw that; "Many of these seem to be aimed more at the New Testament body of believers rather than the physical present nation of Israel."
Much of theology teaches that those prophecies were to Old Testament Israel and were fulfilled. However when you really check many of them out historically, what theologians have taught as being fulfilled never actually happened.
Well then theologians came up with another interpretation, that those prophecies were to the physical present nation of Israel.
But Peter would know more than any of them, because these same theologians have also taught that no one, could have the "spirit of Christ" in them BEFORE the day of Pentecost. AND they teach that what we know of as "the Church" today, which is mainly a gentile Church, is a "special" church, with a "special" gospel, that is totally seperate from the congregation and church of believers of the Old Testament.
But ask yourself this question. Is what we call the Old Testament, meaning all those books before you get to Matthew, REALLY Old Testament?
How does our mind work on that? It's something like this.
When we think "Old Testament", we think "The Law" subconsciously. Now we have been taught that we are not "under the Law". So therefore when we think "Old Testament" and all those books before Matthew, our brain also says NONE OF THAT IS WRITTEN TO ME OR ABOUT ME.
But now ask another question, WHEN did what we know of as "The Law", start?
Didn't it start sometime in Exodus? If so then is GENESIS "The Law"? And here is another question. Was Abraham a JEW? And look at this strange scripture.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
It says that, "God before preached the GOSPEL to Abraham. And the main part of that gospel was that God would justify the heathen (that's you and me, Gentiles) through faith. So then Abraham was the first one to ever hear the gospel. When God told Abraham, that in him would all the nations be blessed, it was said in a "mystery", and it meant that God would justify the heathen through faith.
So then all of what we call and know of as "The Old Testament" or "The Law", is not actually the "Old Testament" and it is not all "The Law". But if that is where you mind has been led, will you actually ever read it much? No.
So we see from Peter, that what we also call "The Old Testament Prophets", also did not prophesy to or about "The Law" and those under the Law, but about the same thing that God spoke to Abraham, that God would justify the heathen (Gentiles) through faith. This was the "grace" that would come unto them. And even Moses himself prophecied of the coming of Christ and the glory that would follow.
And Jesus also said: "Search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me."
Yet we read those prophecies and our mind kinda flips around. Because you read them and at first you may say, for sure, that it is referring to the Isreal, then. But then you read them and you say no, it's the Isreal in the future, but then you read them and you say, But no, this is the Gentiles. Your mind flips around. Why is that?
Because what you are reading is A MYSTERY. How is it a "mystery"?
Again what did Peter say?
1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation [b]the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:[/b] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Peter is talking about "The Mystery", the mystery of the gospel of the Kingdom of God was hidden in the prophecies of what we "call", the Old Testament, which is not ALL "Old Testament", and not ALL "The Law".
1 Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
2 Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
3 Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
4 1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
5 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
6 Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
7 Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
8 Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
9 Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
11 Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
12 Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
13 Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
14 Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
15 Colossians 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
16 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
17 1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
18 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
AND what did they preach this "mystery" out of?
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
Acts 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
Romans 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Well what is one of the ways they have twisted the scriptures? By teaching us that all those books before Matthew are OLD TESTAMENT, and therefore THE LAW, and therefore not written to or about you.
Let me tell you that it was not GOD that put that divider page in your Bible, and called everything from Genesis to Malachi, "The Old Testament", and everything from Matthew through Revelations "The New Testament". That purely an addition of MEN! To Jesus, and the apostles and disciples of the Lord it is all simply "THE SCRIPTURE".
So all these men, Jesus, Peter, Paul, John and others preached the gospel OUT OF what we falsely call "The OLD Testament".
When Paul states the followng.
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
What does he mean he received it by revelaton of Jesus Christ, remembering here that Paul opened and alleged as his manner was out of the SCRIPTURES and taught the SCRIPTURES (falsely call the Old Testament)?
It means that Christ opened the eyes of his understanding to the SCRIPTURES (falsely called the Old Testament) EVERYTHING that Paul wrote about, everything he preached is contained in those SCRIPTURES.
Let's look again at what Peter said and follow it to it's conclusion.
First notice that it says their prophesy was a testamony. Like it says in Rev. that the testamony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10
1. They testified BEFOREHAND
......the sufferings of Christ AND
.......the glory that would follow.
This would mean, not only the coming of Christ, his sufferings and the glory that would follow, but all that was inbetween, as in the apostasy of the Gentile Church whch had not come into being as it now exists. So you have God describing events about an entity that would come into being and be primarily formed through languages other than Hebrew in which the "scriptures" were written.
How do you describe something that does not exist yet? You have to do it in similies or likenesses to what exists at the time. Therefore the Gentile Church, written of in the "scriptures" (falsely called OT), is done in a "likeness" of what was happening and going on with Israel at the time?
WHY is that?
It is because what we think of as the "Gentile Church" or just the "Church" today, was thought of as the following by God.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, [b]being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, [/b]and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 [b]Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;[/b]
20 And are built upon [b]the foundation of the apostles and prophets,[/b] Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[b]What "prophets"? What we call the OT Prophets. We are built upon the foundation of the knowledge that is contained in the writings of the apostles and THE PROPHETS, like Isaiah, Jerimiah, et. et.[/b]
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
WHO are builded TOGETHER? Those believers from what we falsely call the Old Testament, and the Gentiles, they ALL make up what is called the ecclisia of God, the commonwealth of Isreal. They are not a seperate little organisum all their own, they are adopted INTO ISREAL. They did not as some abominations teach, replace Israel, they were adopted into Israel.
Now, regarding these same Old Testament prophets what does it say they did.
1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
This mystery that the Gentiles would be fellowheirs with Israel, adopted into and also CALLED ISRAEL, was HIDDEN FROM ANGELS.
1 Cor 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
hidden Psalms 8:2, Matt 11:25, 1st Cor 1:27, 2nd
1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
God had the Prophets, prophecy the way they did, so as to HIDE the understanding from angles. For had they have understood it, they never would have crucified Jesus. Had they not crucified Jesus, then everyone would still be in bondange to sin, meaning in bondange to THEM.
God bless, that's all I have time for.
The old testament prophets were given these prophecies that seemed to them, at first to be directed towards "themselves", that is their time period and the Isreal then. But they were in truth, the gospel written in a mystery.
I think we have a long ways to go, to truly understand who the gospel fits into these prophecies. I know that the mystery of godliness is there and also the mystery of iniquity.
I also like that part in the verses above, where it says "which things angels desire to look into. Which I believe means that angels also wanted to understand what was being said, and did not.
It was all revealed to Christ, who then revealed it to his disciples, and is now taught in the gospel.
| 2009/9/12 9:26||Profile|
| Re: |
Thanks for all of your comments. The main thrust of my post was that much of the teaching that goes on today has a focus on earthly Israel. From what I am hearing from all of you, you agree that much modern-day teaching on the OT is quite earth-bound, and misses the main point God is trying to make.
El, I agree with you that the gospel was being preached much earlier than most think. I think man has always had access to the gospel; although it was concealed in earlier days. One example is Jude:
"Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints"
... and another earlier from Genesis 3:21:
"the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."
I don't know many of the details of tenets of modern theology, as many of them seem to lead to arguments that don't really accomplish much. I do know the basics, I suppose. I am one of those that believe everyone has always been saved by the blood of Christ, and that His people have always been given His Spirit.
It does not bother me that the first 39 books are called "Old," as Christ does speak of a "new" covenant. I would agree with you el, that most people ditch all the OT books as some Jewish rules. I used to read some of those statements in the NT like Christ saying that Moses wrote of Him, and just think to myself, "someone is missing something, here."
Thanx for everyone's comments.
| 2009/9/13 18:51||Profile|
| Re: |
Israels regathering spoken by/recorded in the prophets are fulfilled as written by the apostles in the New Testament by Messiah through the gospel.
See Hosea's prophecy Hosea 1:9,10; 2:23; see Romans 9:25,26; 1 Peter 2:9 for it's fulfillment
Again, see Isaiah's prophecy Isaiah 10:2023 and it's fulfillment in Romans 9:27,28
Who are Jews?
Not ethnic Israel Rom.9:56 but the true Israel
See Gal. 6:16,3:2629 and Romans 2:2829
One is a Jew by faith not flesh
See Gal. 4:26 and Acts 3:22,23
Compare John 1:11-13 and Luke 21:2022
RE: THE LAND
SEE Joshua 21:4345 and 1 Kings 4:24,25
It's fulfillment in Hebrews 11:1316; 12:2223
1948 may be of some consequence, but it is not found in the prophets, nor is it the fulfillment of any promise by God.
It's refreshing to see the New Covenant perspective being shared by many on this thread. Very encouraging. The post Ive quoted above is very insightful, and I fully concur.
I'll add the following.
Under the New Covenant, there is now no difference between Jew and Gentile (that is, if you dare to believe the apostles of the New Covenant, who were themselves Jews after the flesh).
"But now the righteousness of God without (ie, apart from) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe: for there is [b]no difference[/b], For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God..." (Rom. 3.21-24).
For there is [b]no difference[/b] between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him (Rom. 10.12).
"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; and put [b]no difference[/b] between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith (Acts 15.9).
That the Gentiles should be [b]fellowheirs[/b], and of the [b]same body[/b], and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel
Paul shows clearly that Israel according to the flesh was given the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises (Rom. 9.4). Then in this passage from Ephesians, he teaches that whatever inheritance and promises and covenants God has promised the Jews, the Gentiles are now also fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel. In other words, it is to the Jews first that God has given the promises, but by His mercy and grace in Christ Jesus, He has now opened the door for believing Gentiles to enter in and become partakers of it all.
As a Gentile, Im very glad for that.
God has for the Gentiles as rich a heritage in Christ as He has for the Jews. But perhaps we need to state that the other way around in this day when so many are trying to teach that God is still holding out an earthly heritage for natural Israel. (You mean, if I as a Gentile am now made a fellowheir, God has for me some little plot of ground for an inheritance over there in Palestine? That's the logical conlusion.)
But no, God has in the church as rich a heritage for the Jews as He has for the Gentiles... far, far more than that natural heritage he held out for them in ancient days. Those who are teaching that God is still holding out to natural Israel that old land over there in the Middle East have failed to see what God accomplished in Christ, creating of both Jew and Gentile one new man (Eph. 2.15), and holding out for them both (Jew and Gentile alike) a rich heavenly heritage in Christ Jesus.
The Jews are not second class citizens in the Kingdom of God. To say that God still plans to give them their earthly heritage is really short-changing them.
Even Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob of old had better vision than that. Even they, way back then, looked for a city that hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God (Heb. 11.10).
After the writer of Hebrews says this, he goes on to speak of many who died in faith, not having received the promises (Heb. 11.13). I dont know who those all were, but obviously they were Israelites, and I read that they confessed themselves to be strangers and pilgrims on the earth (Heb. 11.13). The writer of Hebrews draws the logical conclusion, then, that if they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth they were seeking a country (that is, a homeland, a fatherland, a native land where they are no longer strangers and pilgrims).
And he doesnt leave us in the dark as to what the land they were seeking is. But now they desire a better (country), that is an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He hath prepared for them a city (Heb. 11.16).
Not that old land over there in Palestine. A BETTER. I want to find myself in agreement with these anointed apostles who wrote-- and we are always very quick to defend this-- the inspired words of our Bible.
May the Lord anoint our eyes with eyesalve these days... to see the beautiful significance of the New Covenant of our Lord Jesus Christ for both Jew and Gentile.
| 2009/9/14 0:07||Profile|
| Re: Israel Set in Their Own Land|
It's refreshing to see the New Covenant perspective being shared by many on this thread. Very encouraging.
I like Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] [b]I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto [u]myself[/u][/b]. 5 Now therefore, [u]if ye will obey my voice indeed[/u], and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: [b]for ALL the earth [is] mine[/b]:
There should be room for everyone (who believes), [i]there[/i].
| 2009/9/14 10:31|
| Re: |
There should be room for everyone (who believes), there.
"For the promise, that he should be heir [b]of the world[/b] was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith" (Rom. 4.13)
...Not just that little corner of the earth now called Palestine, but "the world." Abraham and his seed are heirs "of the world."
...I once saw an old map, an antique map, titled The World. It was very interesting to see that it showed the then-known earth, but also the planets! It included in "the world" both the earth and the heavens!
And actually that word "world" there in Rom. 4.13 is the Greek "kosmos." The promise is to Abraham and his seed that he should be heir the "kosmos." The cosmos.
And who is Abraham's seed?
"Now to Abraham and His seed were the promises made. He saith not, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one: 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ" (Gal. 3.16).
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3.29).
"If ye be Christ's." So that includes both Jew and Gentile believers.
...And this-- the "kosmos"-- is not just physical geography: it's the heritage of God in the Spirit. How little we Christians, as a people, as the true seed of Abraham, have entered into and possessed our heritage!
| 2009/9/14 12:32||Profile|
| Re: Israel Set in Their Own Land|
Quote:Right now as I read 1 and 2 Kings - of Elijah and Elisha - of raising the dead, and the miraculous multiplication of loaves, and many other provisions from war or physically unfought battles - I'm being deeply challenged by this very thought, that 'What do I [i]really[/i] know of the God who parted the Red Sea, and the Jordan, sent fire, and healed water, and pottage, and lifelong barreness?'
it's the heritage of God in the Spirit. How little we Christians, as a people, as the true seed of Abraham, have entered into and possessed our heritage!
| 2009/9/15 9:21|
| Re: |
To the OP:
Israel 'will' be set in their own land at His Return.
Right now - Lord Rothschild's Balfour Agreement and the UN have set them there to set the stage for the antiChrist's seat - but only by God's providence, to prepare them [through Jacob's troubles] for their True Messiah's Coming - Returning actually, to the Mt. of Olives.
Rom 11:13-27 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: if by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the 'natural' branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a 'good' olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the 'natural' branches, be graffed into their 'own' olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Zec 12:8-14 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; all the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart...
... on to [b]Zech 14[/b]
| 2009/9/15 10:08|
| Re: Israel's Own Land|
Israel 'will' be set in their own land at His Return.
What "land" would that be? What do you see Israel's own land to be?
Ezekiel prophesied, "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land" (Ezek. 36.24).
What land is that?
"I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel" (Ezek. 34.14).
Where are the "high mountains of Israel?" Where is the land of Israel?
In my view this is not a prophesy of that natural earthly land over there in the Middle East.
I'm thinking of Heb. 11.16. "But now they desire [b]a better[/b] country, that is, [b]an heavenly[/b]."
And who is Israel? You quoted Paul in Romans 11.26. "And so all Israel shall be saved..."
But who is "all Israel?"
"For they are not all Israel which are of Israel" (Rom. 9.6).
All Israel now includes both Jews and Gentiles who have been brought into covenant relationship with God through the New Covenant of our Lord Jesus Christ. These are (according to the apostle Paul, at least) "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6.16).
In my understanding, it is a principle of Biblical interpretation to seek to see what's written in "the Old Testament" in the light of the New Testament. This way, as one of the previous posters has said, we discover the "Old Testament" to be filled to overflowing with types and shadows and seeds of New Covenant truth.
...I realize that the above post-- as well as the others earlier-- runs counter to strongly held views that treat much of Scripture concerning Israel from an earthly point of interpretation more or less along the lines of C.I. Scofield's dispensational teaching. I strongly disagree with Scofield, and I hope that people who adhere to his doctrine will keep open hearted before the Lord, and rethink things in the Light of the New Covenant, and reconsider.
...And I do hope that all of our exchanges on this topic will continue to be kept considerate and respectful.
| 2009/9/15 11:07||Profile|
| Re: |
AD, there is "the spiritual" but the Scriptures you give of the spiritual do not and never will cancel out those promises in His Word regarding the natural olive tree and where The Son of David - Our Messiah, sets His Feet at His Return and what transpires in the earthly Jerusalem at His Appearing to those we call the "Jews" - to whom His Promises stand - that He will have direct descendents of Abraham - the "natural" olive tree as His own.
I am not dispensationalist nor pre-trib, as Scoffield was.
Merely taking Him at His Word, in it's entirety.
Those verses from Romans 11 and Zech 12-14 are not canceled out by any other Scriptures - there will always be the spiritual and the natural - until the end of the millenial reign. 'Then' we will be one tree - the mystery will be complete.
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the Scriptures you give of the spiritual do not and never will cancel out those promises in His Word regarding the natural olive tree
You're right, they don't cancel them out. But they do bring them into the light God had in mind when He first set them forth. Their true light, New Covenant light.
He will have direct descendents of Abraham - the "natural" olive tree as His own.
He always has had some of the natural branches as His own, and has some even now. Many-- perhaps most-- of the natural branches were broken off of the olive tree, and the wild branches of the Gentiles were grafted in... but He has always had some of the natural branches in the olive tree. Some day, we are told, there will be a great grafting in again of the natural branches, what Paul calls "their fulness," calling it "life from the dead" (Rom. 11.15). Awesome things are ahead of us.
You mentioned the Millenial reign, saying that after that...
'Then' we will be one tree
I say we are one tree now, believing Jews and believing Gentiles in the one olive tree of Christ.
God never did cast away His people whom He foreknew (Rom. 11.2). The church does not replace Israel. It joins the Gentiles in with the believing Jews, creating in Christ a new Israel, "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6.16).
| 2009/9/15 12:25||Profile|