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letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Israel Set in Their Own Land

Brothers and Sisters

I have been doing a verse by verse study through Isaiah. One of the things I have noticed is the many promises to Jacob and Israel. Many of these seem to be aimed more at the New Testament body of believers rather than the physical present nation of Israel.

I was curious if any of you or any Bible scholars believe that many of the Old Testament promises are not necessarily to be fulfilled toward Jews who live in the country of Israel, but rather more towards the spiritual Israel; the Church.

I know that the physical nation of Israel was regained and so forth, and have always heard what I thought was all the Old Testament promises being applied to them. I have never heard that when Jesus comes back He will rule a nation of Christians who will be assembled from the four corners of the globe, but rather almost like He will being an Israeli king. But I would think that Christ would rule a nation of blood-bought believers, rejecting Jews and Gentiles alike who have trampled His blood under foot.

Curious of your thoughts and about what you have heard or been taught on this.


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Hal Bachman

 2009/9/10 18:26Profile
Leo_Grace
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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re: Israel Set in Their Own Land

Dear letsgetbusy,

Quote:
I was curious if any of you or any Bible scholars believe that many of the Old Testament promises are not necessarily to be fulfilled toward Jews who live in the country of Israel, but rather more towards the spiritual Israel; the Church.


There is an interesting discussion on exactly this topic interspersed with other discussions in another thread. This topic is talked about at the bottom portion of the 4th page of the thread ([url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29765&forum=36&start=30&39]here[/url]).

I hope this helps.

Leo

 2009/9/10 18:39Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Israel Set in Their Own Land

Quote:
Curious of your thoughts and about what you have heard or been taught on this.



I'll give you a little hint at something wonderful ;)

Look at Matthew 2:15 and see who Matthew is applying it to. Then go back and look at who the original passage was about.

Also consider that Christ was "the true vine" which was a name for Israel.

Christ is the true Israel, the one who truly obeyed perfectly, kept the Law perfectly etc.

Have fun with this and be amazed at God's grace to us in Christ.

Oh yeah and don't think Replacement, but rather Expansion.


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patrick heaviside

 2009/9/10 18:48Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

If Christ is the true Israel, then who is the true Israel today? "Seated with Christ in heavenly places"? Who are these? If Christ in you is the hope of glory, where is our glory? In heavenly places? Who is preparing a place with many mansions and for who is He preparing this place for? The True Israel, that is The, "Christ in you the hope of glory", ones? True Israel is Christ in you the hope of glory, a spiritual realm of living. Not an earthly realm which is for earthly Israel on this earth in the millennial reign over this whole earth with earthly Israel being what they were intended for in the first place, to evangelize the whole world, which they failed the first time, but won't the second time with Christ on David's throne.

The heavenly kingdom and the earthly kingdom. The Born Again in Israel, that is Christ, is the heavenly and The earthly is Jesus Christ and His whole heavenly kingdom ruling and reigning from David's Thorne in the new Jerusalem.

The heavenly kingdom was already presented to earthly Israel and they rejected Him, but they will receive Him in His earthly reign for 1000 years, Israel as the Nation of God, The Children of Israel already chosen for their earthly kingdom. They rejected their heavenly kingdom, that is Christ.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/9/10 20:26Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

As I don't believe in a literal 100 year reign, I can't really reply.

God has been after a people, He has redeemed them in Christ and given them the righteousness that was required of Israel in the OT. They were to be a "city on a hill" in a sense, declaring the glory of God to the nations.

Those who are rebirthed into Christ, are one people, one community who are to show forth the glory of God to the nations.

As for natural Israel, they are just as lost as any unsaved person or group of people, and from them some shall be saved. They don't have any special line to God at all.

I think that John makes it clear to all people that whoever does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father(John 5:23) and since that is true, no one has any special road to the Kingdom apart from Christ.

I'd like to get your take on Matthew 2:15 and its application to Christ by the NT as in the OT is was clearly a reference to Israel, as was the vine.

We can't just write these off(not saying you are at all)because they might not fit in with what we have held as truth.

Either way, let love be what marks our words, as this is not an essential to Christian faith.


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patrick heaviside

 2009/9/10 21:39Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
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 Re:

Most Christians who have had any Bible training at all know the theme of the in Christ position.
But not many know the Christ that is in them. This is essential to know what God's plan before the foundation of the world is all about.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Any saved person that is in Christ has Christ the person in themselves, Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

"None of His", harsh words, but this is the essential part of the in Christ position Paul speaks about in all his epistles. This is the heavenly realm the born again live in. The earthly promises to Israel must be fulfilled and they will be, as stated in Revelations many times.

So anything before the foundation of the world is God's positional plan for those in Christ and Christ in them. Any time God's chosen people of Israel are mentioned, they are from the foundation of the world.

Mt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Lu 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

All these pertain to earthly Israel and their promises that God will not repent of. These are not those that enter into His rest, as He swore.

Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

These are those that were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the World, without Law, no condemnation, born again son's of God, birthed by Incorruptable Seed of the Father, which is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". Only rebirthed when the Corn of Wheat, Jesus Christ fell into the ground and die, then those are produced by much fruit of Christ's resurrection and life being birthed in the believer, "That Jesus Christ is the Son of God".

1 Peter 1:18-23 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

This is our life before the foundation of the World.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/9/10 23:07Profile
Christinyou
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Posts: 3707
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 Re:

Matt 2:15
Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Matthew 2:1



CHAPTER 2

2. The King Worshipped by Gentiles; Jerusalem in Ignorance of Him; the Child Persecuted.
1. The Visit of the Wise Men. 2:1-12.
2. The Flight into Egypt. 2:13-18.
3. The Return from Egypt. 2:19-23.
The authenticity of the story of the visit of the wise men seeking the new-born King of the Jews has been doubted, because no other Evangelist reports this incident. It belongs properly into the Gospel, in which our Lord is portrayed as the King. This is the reason of its being reported only in Matthew's Gospel. The wise men were not three persons, nor were they Kings. It must have been a larger company, for it troubled Herod and all Jerusalem with him. Nor did the visit take place immediately after the birth of our Lord. The correct rendering of the first verse is, "But Jesus having been born," that is, some time after and not immediately after. The pictures which portray the wise men worshipping the child in a stable are unscriptural, for it says they found the young child in a house. It was most likely a year after His birth, that the wise men from the East appeared. Lu 2:41 shows that His parents went to Jerusalem every year; they must then also have visited Bethlehem again.

The promised King is unknown in His own city, Jerusalem. His own people are ignorant of Him. Gentiles come first to do Him homage. The ecclesiastical authorities are indifferent to His claims, the civil ruler, Herod, the King, hates Him, and as Satan's instrument seeks His life. The history of the King and His Kingdom is outlined in this story. His own are not going to receive Him. The indifference of the chief priests and scribes points to their coming antagonism. But Gentiles seek Him first. Simeon's prophetic song is seen here in its coming fulfillment, "A light to lighten the Gentiles," but in the end also, after God's purpose in this age is accomplished, "the glory of thy people Israel" (Lu 2:32). They bring gold, typical of divinity; frankincense, indicating the fragrance of His life and worship; and myrrh, that which is used in burial, a hint as to His death. Note that this is not a fulfillment of Isa 9:6. That passage refers to the time when the Kingdom is set up on earth. Myrrh in Isaiah is not mentioned.

Throughout the chapter the child always occupies the first and prominent place. It is never "Mary and the child," or "the mother and the child," but "the little child and His mother"--The child is above the mother. What a rebuke to the Romish church, which in idolatry puts the mother above the child.

See Ho 11:1 on the flight to Egypt and the return. All indicates what is to be done to Him, who is the King.


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Phillip

 2009/9/10 23:29Profile
Christinyou
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Posts: 3707
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 Re:

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Hosea 9:10



CHAPTER 9:10-11:11

Retrospect, Israel's Failure and Ruin

1. Israel once beloved, now fugitive wanderers (9:10-17)
2. Their guilt and punishment (10:1-11)
3. Exhortation and rebuke (10:12-15)
4. The mercy of a merciful God (11:1-11)
Verses 10-17. Like a wayfaring man who finds grapes and figs in the desert and delights in them, so the Lord found Israel in the desert and they were His pleasure when He led them out of Egypt. But they requited His love by going after Baal-peor, one of the filthiest gods of heathendom. To this they consecrated themselves and practiced their vile abominations. Therefore the glory which He had given to His people will fly away like a bird and their licentious worship of unnatural vices would avenge itself so that there would be no pregnancy and no birth, the promised increase would stop. It seems verses 14-17 are an outburst of the prophet. How literally the sentence has been fulfilled. "They will be wanderers."

Chapter 10:1-11. Here is another retrospect, Israel once called to be a thriving vine (not empty), called to be fruitful; but Israel did not bring forth the expected fruit. As the nation abounded and prospered they increased their idol altars; as the land yielded its increase in the same measure they made their images. Their heart was smooth, or deceitful, for this they will now have to suffer. "Their heart is smooth; now will they make expiation." They will have no more king. The smooth or deceitful heart is described in verse 4, while in the verse which follows the judgment upon their calves they worshipped is announced. It, the calf, will be carried to Assyria to be made a present of to the king. The high places will be destroyed and thorns and thistles will overgrow its altars. Then they will say to the mountains, "Cover us!" and to the hills, "Fall upon us!" Well, it is to read In connection with this prophetic statement what our Lord said about the judgment of Jerusalem in Lu 23:30 and what is written in connection with the breaking of the sixth seal in Re 6:16.

Gibeah is mentioned (verse 9). The corruption of Gibeah is also noted in chapter 9:9. The horrible abomination of Gibeah is recorded in Jg 19 in consequence of which the tribe of Benjamin was almost wiped out. And the people had become as wicked and guilty as Benjamin at Gibeah. The nations are now to be used to punish Israel. "And the nations will gather themselves against them, when I bind them for their offenses" (verse 10, literal translation).

Verses 12-15. Here is a break in the judgment message. If they would return to the Lord and would sow righteousness, they would reap mercy. But such sowing is impossible unless the fallow ground is broken up, that is, true repentance and a heart return unto the Lord. "For it is time to seek the Lord, until He come and rain righteousness upon you." In what infinite patience He waited for the repentance of His people! But while He would save them, they would not! Still God's gifts and calling are without repentance and the day will come when a remnant of Israel will seek the Lord; then He will come and rain righteousness upon them.

How different was their condition! The Lord rebukes them, for they had ploughed wickedness, and reaped iniquity. The noise of war is now heard; Shalman (a contracted form of Shalmanezer, the King of Assyria) is advancing and shall destroy all their fortresses as he destroyed Beth-arbel. (There is no further record of Beth-arbel and its destruction.) And who was responsible for all this havoc and the impending calamity? "Thus has Bethel done to you, for the evil of your great evil. In the early morning the king of Israel shall be utterly cut off." Bethel was the seat of Israel's idolatry, it drew God's wrath and finally ended the monarchy in Israel and their national existence.

Chapter 11:1-11. This chapter starts with a beautiful allusion to Israel's youth, when in sovereign love He called Israel, His firstborn son, out of Egypt, redeeming them by blood and power (Ex 4:22-23). But this passage is quoted in the second chapter of the Gospel of Matthew: "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called My Son" (Mt 2:15). The blending together of Israel and Christ is very interesting. Christ is the true Israel and goes through the entire history of the nation, without failure and in divine perfection. He was carried as an infant into the land where Israel suffered in the fiery furnace; and finally He died for that nation and in some future day through Him, the true Israel (called such in Isa 49), Israel's great future and glory will come to pass.

But while the Son of God, the true Israel, was perfect and holy in all His ways, Israel was unfaithful. This record of Jehovah's faithfulness and mercy is here unfolded. He sent them prophets who called them, but they turned away from Him and gave themselves over to the Baalim and the idol-gods. How loving He had been to them! He led them, took them into His arms and healed them. He drew them with cords of love and was towards them "as those that would raise the yoke-strap over their jaws, and I reached out to them to eat" (verse 4). It is a beautiful picture of His great gentleness with them. Perhaps some of them were anxious to turn to Egypt and find a home there and thus escape the cruel Assyrian. But the Lord declares that they shall not return to Egypt, but Assyria is to be their king, because they refused to return. The sword of judgment would do its work completely (verses 6-7). Then follows a most wonderful outburst of deepest sorrow over the stubborn nation:



How should I give you up, Ephraim?
How shall I surrender thee, Israel?
How should I make thee like Admah?
Or set thee like Zeboim?
My heart is turned within me;
My repentings are kindled together.

It is the same Lord who speaks here, who centuries later stood before the city and broke out in loud weeping when He beheld the city: "If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes" (Lu 19:42). "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt 23:37). How He loves His people! And though He has punished them, He does not forsake them; He will not be angry forever; He is a covenant keeping God, "For I am God and not man" (verse 9). "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed" (Mal 3:6). And so here, this chapter of Jehovah's mercy ends with the assurance of their future restoration and blessing. "They will follow the Lord." That will be "when like a lion He roars." That is the day when He appears again as "The lion of the tribe of Judah." Then, in that day, like a bird from Egypt they will hasten back and like a dove from Assyria. "Then will I make them dwell in their houses, saith the Lord." Here is another prophecy of their restoration to their own, God-given home land.


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Phillip

 2009/9/10 23:31Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2071


 Re: Israel Set in Their Own Land

Israel’s regathering spoken by/recorded in the prophets are fulfilled as written by the apostles in the New Testament by Messiah through the gospel.

See Hosea's prophecy Hosea 1:9,10; 2:23; see Romans 9:25,26; 1 Peter 2:9 for it's fulfillment

Again, see Isaiah's prophecy Isaiah 10:20–23 and it's fulfillment in Romans 9:27,28


Who are Jews?

Not ethnic Israel Rom.9:5–6 but the true Israel

See Gal. 6:16,3:26–29 and Romans 2:28–29

One is a Jew by faith not flesh

See Gal. 4:26 and Acts 3:22,23

Compare John 1:11-13 and Luke 21:20–22

RE: THE LAND

SEE Joshua 21:43–45 and 1 Kings 4:24,25

It's fulfillment in Hebrews 11:13–16; 12:22–23

1948 may be of some consequence, but it is not found in the prophets, nor is it the fulfillment of any promise by God.

 2009/9/10 23:39Profile









 Re: Israel Set in Their Own Land


roaringlamb said

Quote:
Oh yeah and don't think Replacement, but rather Expansion.

Thank you for this, bro.

1 Chr 18, also, seems to list David's further conquests, taking 'the land' back, from a border with Egypt, all the way to the Euphrates.


 2009/9/11 9:52





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