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5nva
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Joined: 2003/8/15
Posts: 179


 Re:

Psalm 51:10-11 David prayed Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. De not cast me away from your presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe there are also other references in the OT of men having the Holy Spirit.

Mike


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Mike

 2004/9/17 15:23Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Psalm 51:10-11 David prayed Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. De not cast me away from your presence and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe there are also other references in the OT of men having the Holy Spirit.



Hi Mike
Rookie and I have been having this conversation for months now. :-(

There are only three references to the 'holy' Spirit in the Old Testament. [Ps 51:11, Is 63:10,11] It is not the way the OT usually refers to the Spirit of God. The references all use the word 'holy' in direct contrast to the behaviour of the 'unholy' people of God. David's prayer is very instructive. He had seen God remove His Spirit from Saul in response to Saul's sin and he is afraid that he is about to suffer the same fate. The distinctive location of the Spirit in Saul's life was 'upon him'. The Lord Jesus referred to the presence of the Spirit in the life of his disciples in the same image. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (Joh 14:17-20 KJV) His use of prepositions is very exact here; he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.

David, as many of those wonderful OT saints were anointed. In spite of the way that Pentecostal and Charismatics use this language the OT kind of anointing is absent from the New Covenant. Their anointing was a temporary thing, remaining until the job was done and then removing eg Samson. In the New Covenant the 'anointing' goes inside and is permanent; But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1Jo 2:27 KJV). Do you see where it has gone now? Is is within and it is no longer a temporary phenomenon, it abideth in you. This is a internal, abiding anointing; theirs was external and temporary.

David realised that he was in danger of loosing 'his anointing' because of his sin which is why he prayed as he did in Ps 51. You are right there are very many references to people in the Old Testament 'having the Spirit' but was He upon them or within them?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/17 15:44Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Zeke wrote:

Quote:
That is why they had temple worship with its many sacrifices, that is were God dwelled in the OT, not in there hearts.



Where did God dwell during the lives of Enoch, Abel, Seth, or Joshua?
My point is that unless God speaks to us how do we know His will? Jesus said that the function of the Holy Spirit is to counsel those who believe. The content of that counsel would lead the hearer to become more like Christ. This is the saving work of our Lord. It is real. Likewise, how would the OT saints know what God wanted of them unless He spoke to them?

These are conclusion that one comes to as one learns from Scripture. Every faithful example given to us in the OT requires that God first speak to the individual. God said to Abraham get up and go to a place where I will lead you. If God had not spoke, Abraham would not have gone. Abraham was able to conclude that when God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac that God if He has to would raise Isaac up from the dead. Hebrews 1l. Read in the OT the times God calls for the nation of Israel to repent. Listen to His judgements. He charges them that they did not heed His voice. Look up in the concordance, the word voice. Just as He gave Solomon a warning twice to repent, so He does to all the saints. Read Job 31-34, Scripture tells us how God saves. Read Psalm 119, Scripture tells us how God saves. He teaches us by His word.

The Psalmist declares, "Your testimonies are wonderful; therefore my soul keeps them, the entrance of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple. I opened my mouth and panted, for I longed for Your commandments. Look upon me and be merciful to me, as Your custom is toward those who love Your name. Psalm 119:129-133.

These words in Psalm 119 apply to all believers. These thoughts should be our thoughts. What good is Psalm 119 if these thoughts mean nothing to us. Likewise many generation of saints in the OT read this Psalm. What good is it to them unless God illuminates his word? The OT saints sang these words over and over again. For what purpose?

Emmanuel was with them as He is with us.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/17 16:22Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

Emmanuel was with them as He is with us.


But He is not only with us. He promised us something He never promised them; that He would be in us.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/17 16:27Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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Savannah TN

 Re:

What then is the testimony of the saints of today? How do they, empowered by the indwelling spirit, differ from Abraham.

The counselor speaks, it is the word that creates faith. The OT saints were santified by the word of God. The OT saints were justified and lived by faith. No one can come near God unless He calls. We have a greater revelation of His work, yet how we suffer in bondage to our carnal man.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/17 16:34Profile
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 Re:

Hi Jeff
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (Joh 16:7 KJV)

What do you see as the purpose behind this statement? Christ was obviously going to 'send' someone which must imply in some sense that He was not here before He was sent. His coming was going to be 'expedient'. The word means 'better', 'profitable' What was going to be 'better'? If the purpose of His coming was to effect what the OT saints had known before He came, how would that be 'better'? What do you see as the 'extra' that His coming was plainly to have?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/17 17:35Profile
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Posts: 4821
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 Re:

Christ prayed something to the effect, Give to me the glory I once had with You. In the gospels, while Christ was man, Scripture says that the Holy Spirit could not be given until Christ was glorified. Once Christ rose from the dead, and was with the apostles, He said some where at the end of the gospels, "Receive the Spirit," Please forgive me for I do not have time to quote Scripture. It is time for me to carpool home. I believe that the glory that Christ had before He became man was restored to Him after He rose from the dead. Thus He resumed His heavenly priesthood.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/17 18:23Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

Quote:
I believe that the glory that Christ had before He became man was restored to Him after He rose from the dead. Thus He resumed His heavenly priesthood.


Hi Jeff
Of course, this is our 'other' conversation. :-D

But none of your most recent post tells me how the disciples were affected by the coming of the Spirit in Acts 2. What do you think happened to them then that had not happened before?

You will recall that even after the John 20:22 breathing of the Spirit the disciples were ordered to remain in Jerusalem until they were 'endued with power from on high'. This word power in 'dunamis' which is power inherent in the nature of a thing. This is not bolt-on spiritual muscle but a new inward dynamic.

The experience of John 20:22 was plainly not the event promised by Christ in John 14-16.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/18 3:48Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Connections

Hi rookie,

I am battling to see the relation between the Holy Spirit being in the OT or NT saints and God speaking to them/us creating faith in our hearts. Please help me to understand?


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/9/18 8:14Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
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 Re:

To Brothers Ron and Zeke:

Paul teaches in Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew who is one [b]inwardly[/b]; and circumcision is that [b]of the heart, in the Spirit[/b] not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Here Paul defines the difference between those who follow the law according to their flesh, and those who are taught by the Holy Spirit how to please God. What is the result of one who is led by the Spirit? One's heart is circumsised of there carnal ways. The word of God is implanted in their hearts and that causes one the cast off the hardness that exists prior to God working in them. Jesus speaks to the crowd to explain His teachings what is required of His disciples. "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." John 6:53. The crowd did not understand this teaching so Jesus elaborated on it by saying, "It is the [b]Spirit[/b] who gives life; the [b]flesh[/b] profits nothing. The words that I [b]speak to you[/b] are [b]spirit[/b], and they are life." John 6:63 Here Jesus teaches us that His disciples must eat His flesh and drink His blood. I believe this is symbolic of saying that those who follow Him will die to their flesh as He demonstrated to the whole world. Jesus identifies that it is His words which brings life to His disciples. Jesus identifies that His words are communicated to us through the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it is His words that will circumcise our hearts.

In Hebrews 8:10-13, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; [b]I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; [/b] and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, "Know the Lord, for [b]all shall know Me[/b], from the least of them to the greatest of them...." Here we learn that our High Priest Jesus promises this to happen in the lives of those who believe in Him. This is the work of God in those He sets apart from this world.

Now let's look to Jeremiah 11:23-25, "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, let not the might man glory in his might, nor let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him who glories glory in this, " So far Jeremiah has identified the ways of man and his dependence on his flesh. Now look to who Jeremiah directs us to.

"That he [b]understands and knows Me.[/b] That I am the Lord, exercising lovingkindness, judgement, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight says the Lord." Here Jeremiah explains that only those who [b]know God [/b] can please Him. Is this not part of the new covenant promise that we find in Hebrew?

Then Jeremiah writes on," Behold, the days are coming says the Lord, "that I will punish all who are circumcised with the uncircumcised--Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab, and all who are in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all these nations are [b]uncircumcised[/b], and all the house of Israel are [b]uncircumcised in the heart."[/b] Here God judges Israel because they have not circumcised their hearts. We know that there is nothing good in man and without God granting repentance, without God's lovingkindness, man is lost. So the nature of God is that unless He acts upon man His creation is condemned. Therefore God would not judge Israel unless Israel had the same opportunity that we have today with the works of the Holy Spirit on our hearts. See Romans 8:13, It is only those who put to death the flesh by following the Holy Spirit that become heirs of the kingdom.

Got to go
In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/20 12:36Profile





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