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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Interpreting the life of Jacob was he rebellious and judged or obedient and blessed? (more thorough)

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imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Leograce wrote...

Quote:
In the light of God's pure holiness, as taught clearly in scripture, it becomes easy to recognize that the midwives were blessed by God because of their fear of Him, not because they lied to Pharaoh.



I don't get your response that you say is clear and easy to recognize? How did they fear God apart from lying to Pharoah in order to save the children? What did they do other than that?


Quote:
A careful reading of the verse in Hebrews 11:31 will clearly show that Rahab was considered faithful for welcoming the spies, not for lying.



This also leaves questions in your teaching. The OT account from Josh 2:3-6:25 spells it out as clear as can be, that Rahab was helped out because she, instead of telling the truth and letting the 2 spies be killed, rather lied, hid the men and even planned their escape for them. Yet you say they were blessed for receiving them into the house, but not for saving their lives by lying to the king of Jericho? Had she received them into her house then handed them over to the king of Jericho to be killed, you're saying she would've ended up in Heb 11 just the same but maybe even better as she wouldn't have that nasty lie to her account that saved the lives of the 2 spies?



And lastly...

Quote:
It is clear from the passage that God did not instruct anyone to lie for him. He was looking for a way to cause Ahab to attack Gilead. The devil came forth and offered to accomplish this "enticement". As in the case of Job, God allowed the devil to act.

It is a sad thing when scripture is enlisted to cast doubts on the holiness of God, and thereby open the way for the devil to tempt the faith of some believers.




It seems to me that in the text you quoted (1Ki 22:19-22), you left out the last verse (vs 23) of the context that summarizes the account, that you had to have read...

[b]1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.[/b]

Why would you leave this verse out, stopping at verse 22, then tell us it is easy to see that God had nothing to do with it, trying to hide this verse to win your argument? Then you followed up with the charge that I was trying to sadly enlist scripture to cast doubts on the holiness of God? Which of us is misusing scripture?


Nasty charge brother. It's best to keep the slanders to yourself. Maybe the teaching too for a while, unless you can let the bible speak for itself and not leave out verses that clearly contradict your thoughts and argument.

This is why I always encourage believers to not get into debate and argument until they've fully studied and are fully sure. That way they won't be tempted to defend what, in time, they see is wrong.


I agree with you that day to day in the norm, lying is wrong. I won't even go so far as to try and give situations when it's right, lest I tempt someone to sin. But from these passages, when God's people were in dire straits, the scripture account appears to hold them blameless for using deception to thwart God's enemies or bring about his plans.

If the day comes, and authorities ask me to turn in those that I know are believers, to go against God and His commands, I'll have a choice, to do as you are saying and say the truth, or otherwise. I think under such circumstance you might think otherwise yourself.

We need to pray for wisdom, faith and courage in times like that.


 2009/9/12 0:26Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear imnowhere,

This is the third time where you have basically ignored the meaning of my posts and have twisted them in your responses to serve your own ends. It is tiresome to deal with someone like you.

[b]Regarding Ahab and Jehoshaphat[/b]

If you would just look past your dubious intent, you will see that my quote from 1Kings 22:19-22 covers the actual detailed narrative of how God acted on the matter, while verse 23 was the prophet's concluding warning to Ahab. I separated the narrative from the warning. The narrative contains the details of what occurred (God allowed -- not instructed -- the devil to do it), while the conclusion is an oversimplified summary that contains no detail.

1Ki 22:19-22 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ “ ‘By what means?’ the LORD asked. “ ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “ [size=medium][b][u][color=CC3300]‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’[/color][/u][/b][/size]

You choose to go with the conclusion and intentionally ignored the details because it serves your purpose, which is to cast doubt on God's holiness. I choose to focus on the detailed narrative because it contains the truth of the event, which is consistent with God's holiness.

[b]Regarding Rahab[/b]

In the case of Rahab,the issue at hand is why Rahab was commended as faithful. The passage in Joshua does not mention anything about her faith --- only Hebrews 11:31 ascribes faith to Rahab, and the verse reads...

[b][size=medium]Heb 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, [u][color=CC3300]because she welcomed the spies[/color][/u], was not killed with those who were disobedient.[/size][/b]

But this clear statement is not enough for you. You wish to muddy the waters and then insert lying as part of Rahab's commendation in order to deceive the believers into compromising God's call to holiness.

[b]Regarding the midwives[/b]

They were rewarded because they feared God and let the boys live. But again here you would want to deceive others into believing that lying was a good thing and promote an adulterated form of holiness.

Ex 1:17-21 [size=medium][b][color=CC3300]The midwives, however, [u]feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live.[/color][/u][/b][/size] Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, “Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?” The midwives answered Pharaoh, “Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.” So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous. And [size=medium][b][u][color=CC3300]because the midwives feared God[/color][/u][/b][/size], he gave them families of their own.

Perhaps with the larger font, the bold print, the underline and the red color, you will no longer be able to ignore the critical parts of the passages.

[b]Finally, you said:[/b]

Quote:
If the day comes, and authorities ask me to turn in those that I know are believers, to go against God and His commands, I'll have a choice, to do as you are saying and say the truth, or otherwise. I think under such circumstance you might think otherwise yourself


In such an instance, I would choose not to lie and just be silent, which is what most Christians would do. We shouldn't be afraid to die in order to faithfully obey God.

1Co 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. [i]And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.[/i]

[b]Conclusion:[/b]

God is holy, and nothing in scripture can contradict that, no matter how much you try to twist things.

I decided to respond to your post out of fear that your antics might cause some who might read it to stumble. Otherwise, I would have avoided you and your little game altogether.

Now that I have posted a clear response to your twisted insinuations, I am done with this discussion.

Leo

 2009/9/12 1:21Profile
imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Your arrogant responses and your big red letters don't impress me.
When I come across someone who refuses to admit the difficulty with hard passages like this, resorts to insults and personal attacks to win, then lastly uses the classic passive-aggresive to hide behind, I have to ask, who is the one with the twisted insinuations?

The reason you don't like interacting is because I don't politely agree with everything you say. I've shown from the bible what I think are problems with your view. You don't answer the questions (thinking big red letters make you right when your answers lack substance).

In the first two cases you deny the obvious, that it was faith that caused them to do what they did to save the lives of God's people. Standing there silent as you self righteously proclaim you'd do would've sent those people to death.
And in the last case, since when does a summary lack authority to the details? The summary carries more for crying out loud! It's the final word! And the final word was that The Lord did it!

Keep your view.

But your villianizing me for maintaining a different view than your own along with all your slanders about my trying to corrupt God's holiness is beyond pathetic. How bad must you want to be right no matter what?

My response to one that disagrees would rather be to admit they are hard passages.

If this is the spirit of humility and teachableness you've been telling us all to have, I think I'll pass.

 2009/9/12 10:36Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Dear imnowhere,

Why don't I like interacting with you? It's not because you don't share my views. It's because you habitually twist my meanings and try to put words in my mouth.

For example:

Quote:
In the first two cases you deny the obvious, that it was faith that caused them to do what they did to save the lives of God's people. [b]Standing there silent as you self righteously proclaim you'd do would've sent those people to death.[/b]


I never said this, and you can search all of my posts if you want. I said they were commended for their faith and fear of God, and not for lying. You want people to believe the opposite.

Quote:
And in the last case, since when does a summary lack authority to the details? The summary carries more for crying out loud! It's the final word! And the final word was that [b]The Lord did it![/b]


The details clearly show that God did not instruct anyone to lie, he merely allowed the devil to act, as in the case of Job. What is your motive for ignoring this important detail?

Quote:
But your villianizing me for maintaining a different view than your own along with all your slanders about my trying to corrupt God's holiness is beyond pathetic. How bad must you want to be right no matter what?


In my other posts, I have time and again conceded to or refrained from debating other points of view where God's character was not at stake. But I cannot sit silently by and allow anyone (not just you) to imply that our great and loving God can be anything less than holy. I will always call out and expose anyone who tries to undermine the holiness of God.

 2009/9/12 12:36Profile
imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Keep up the humility and dilligence in pointing out those who are intentionally trying to undermine God's holiness. Don't let superficial understanding of hard questions get in your way.

 2009/9/12 13:49Profile





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