| Poster | Thread | agnostic
Member
Joined: 2009/8/29
Posts: 9
| | The elect | | I have been reading a lot about predesination or election. It seems to go like this from what I can understand...
Being born again is the work of the holy spirit, which leads to faith, but God saves who he will save, and hardens the hard of those he will harden.
If we are born into sin, if we can't not sin, because we were born radially depraved...
Is it loving of God to not lead all men to be born again? Why would he harden the hearts of some so they are desinated to hell?
|
|  2009/8/31 17:45 | Profile | imnowhere
Member
Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69
| | Re: The elect | | John 6:37 If you go to Christ in faith, you won't be turned away.
Rom 6:23 One is earned. One is a gift.
A true understanding of grace is one of the hardest doctrines to handle. We always want something to merit our way in. Grace is a fearful thing. I believe that's why John Newton wrote in his famous hymn, 'Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved...' Like the prodigal coming back and being fearful of the union, and then relieved.
God is not like us. We'd give salvation to those who earn it. So my friend, if you come to Christ for His righteousness, for all of it, as a child with empty hands, you too can be adopted.
It's good to look into these things. But God will do what He does, and we will do what we can. Who are we to talk back to God? If you come to Christ, you will not be cast away.
And lastly, we in the church have been given the ministry of reconciliation, not condemnation.
2 Cor 5:17-21
We don't judge God, nor those outside the church.
Knowing the terror of the Lord, Please be reconciled. |
| | 2009/8/31 18:46 | Profile | Jimotheus
Member
Joined: 2005/7/8
Posts: 53
| | Re: The elect | | Greetings agnostic:
First of all, predestination is not election as some have mistaken. Go to the Lord in true sincerity and ask him to show you the difference between the two, and then do a separate word study on them. I believe that it will become evident to you that there has been an unlawful amalgamation of these two concepts in order to buttress a false teaching dominating most of what is called, "evangelicalism."
Concerning election there is a key thing to keep in mind when studying the scriptures. Election is Christocentric and not particular men. Only Christ is the true sinless God/man and therefore the election of God is in him, not in me or you. Election is only in the Son. Eternal life is only in the Son. Therefore he that has THE SON has life, and he that has not THE SON of GOD has not life. It's all about Jesus and to him alone be all the glory, honor, power, and dominion both now and forever.
In light of this is clear that the election of God only encompasses individuals as they bow in repentance and faith in the finished work of salvation accomplish by the Son on the cross. The election of God does not encompasses individuals unconditionally as some postulate. In fact the election of God encompasses all men potentially, no man unconditionally, the "Israel of God" efficiently. |
| | 2009/8/31 19:41 | Profile | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: The elect | | Quote:
agnostic wrote:
Being born again is the work of the holy spirit, which leads to faith,
Being born again is the same as being saved.
One can not be saved with out faith, therefore, being born again coed not LEAD to faith, but is from faith.
Quote:
but God saves who he will save, and hardens the hard of those he will harden.
Sounds like Romans 9:15.
God will save anyone who meats the requirements, which are those who put their faith in/on Christ and what He has said & done with repentance to prove the faith.
He will harden those who get offended at the Gospel and resist Him.
Quote:
If we are born into sin, if we can't not sin, because we were born radically depraved...
If we can't not sin, then we would be innocent because the inability would exempt us from the obligation to not sin
This is common sense.
Quote:
Is it loving of God to not lead all men to be born again?
No!!!
Quote:
Why would he harden the hearts of some so they are desinated to hell?
Because They whose heart becomes hard was able to put their faith in/on Christ and what He has said & done with repentance to prove their faith, but refuse.
That is why they are condemned.
If they weren't able to, then they are not worthy of punishment because it would not be disobedience or rebellion, but only disability.
Here is the answer to your question?
[b]Pro 1:24[/b] [color=990000]Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
[b]:25[/b] But you have ignored all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof:
[b]:26[/b] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes;
[b]:27[/b] When your terror comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes upon you.
[b]:28[/b] Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
[b]:29[/b] Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
[b]:30[/b] They would have none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
[b]:31[/b] Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.[/color] |
| | 2009/8/31 21:22 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Quote:
Jimotheus wrote;
""Only Christ is the true sinless God/man and therefore the election of God is in him, not in me or you. Election is only in the Son. Eternal life is only in the Son. Therefore he that has THE SON has life, and he that has not THE SON of GOD has not life""
In other words Election is not being predistinated to heaven or hell, but to be in Christ conformed to His image.
Romans 8:29-31 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
All this before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:4-9 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
This mystery, Paul says, "it is Christ in you the hope of Glory". This is our Election, to be in Christ, Him being made unto us and in us by the Father, "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
Not predestinated or elected to heaven or hell, but to be in Christ and conformed to His image.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Elect; God's favorites, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased and it is Him that is now birthed in us and makes us His Elect in Christ.
Strong's Greek Dictionary
1588. eklektos
Search for G1588 in KJVSL
eklektoV eklektos ek-lek-tos'
from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.
In Christ: Phillip
_________________
Phillip
|
| | 2009/9/1 2:52 | Profile | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: The elect | | Quote:
Why would he harden the hearts of some so they are destined to hell?
This concept of God hardening hearts has troubled me for years - and I was raised on the WORD, went to parochial schools, Bible Schools and presently am 62 years old - until just recently. (Some truths take years before its meaning finally makes sense.)
We read about it first (I think) when Moses wanted to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. Initially Pharaoh would harden his heart against Moses plea for official permission to lead the people out of Egypt. Then later Scripture says the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. Now, how can this be? Is God not merciful? Does he not want all to be saved? Yes. So, how do you explain God's heartening of Pharaoh's heart (and others as well)?
This is the the insight that came to me, really simple, actually.
God is very creative. In his economy NOTHING, NOBODY goes to waste. EVERYTHING is used for a purpose. He will work it out where he can use them to his benefit somewhere, somehow.
(There was an incident which the Lord used to help me understand this truth. I visited a friend who is a professional quilter. She designs quilts and enters them in shows and has won prestigious awards. When I was there she showed me a project she was working on and the problem she encountered. When I saw that, I would have thrown it away and started anew - fixing it would have been too time consuming and maddening. But no, she was thinking how she could fix it in a nontraditional way. Her creativity was at work. She was working to salvage a bad situation and likely then get rewarded for it!)
So it was that Pharaoh was at heart an obstinate man. He thought only for himself, all things had to serve him. He was not about to surrender his authority to anyone else. But even a man like Pharaoh could change his mind so that in a moment of 'compromise' he just might allow the Israelites to go to the wilderness to worship. But he still had a heart set against God. He was not about to change and God knew that. (This point is very important to understand.) Lest he change his mind, God hardened his heart so he could manipulate him better. The Israelites had a few lessons they needed to learn which could not have happened if Pharaoh would have changed his mind. God had a plan in how he was going to deal with the Israelites and he was going to use Pharaoh to this end.
So a fellow that most of us would have discarded onto the trash heap, God used in a very creative way. Pharaoh was destined to hell, was not about to change and God knew all this, hence he could harden his heart to make His work easier.
This incident demonstrates how "all things work together for good to those who love the LORD."
And I suspect God still works this way today.
Make sense? hope it helps...
ginnyrose
_________________
Sandra Miller
|
| | 2009/9/1 9:45 | Profile | Leo_Grace
Member
Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703
| | Re: | | Quote:
So a fellow that most of us would have discarded onto the trash heap, God used in a very creative way. Pharaoh was destined to hell, was not about to change and God knew all this, hence he could harden his heart to make His work easier. This incident demonstrates how "all things work together for good to those who love the LORD." And I suspect God still works this way today. Make sense? hope it helps... ginnyrose
It makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for this valuable insight, ginnyrose. |
| | 2009/9/1 10:01 | Profile | whyme
Member
Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293
| | Re: The elect | | Ginnyrose,
You might also want to consider that Pharaoh's heart was never as bad as it could have been because of God's grace to him and when God chose to, He merely removed the restraining grace he had given to Pharaoh without actually affirmatively hardening Pharaoh's heart at all. HE works that way ( adding restraining grace and removing it ) all the time in people's lives to, as you point out, accomplish His greater purposes for His people. In this way, man's responsibility for his own actions is preserved even where God does the hardening in this sense. |
| | 2009/9/1 11:58 | Profile | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
ginnyrose wrote:
Quote:
Why would he harden the hearts of some so they are destined to hell?
Lest he change his mind, God hardened his heart so he could manipulate him better.
The way that God hardened Pharaoh's heart is the same way I can harden my brothers heart from offence.
You could say that I hardened his heart, but in reality, He did because he was offended.
The same with God and Pharaoh.
A lowly Moses (whom Pharaoh hated because of the past relationship) comes to a proud Pharaoh demanding to set free labor, the slaves free.
This is how God offended Pharaoh to harden his heart.
Quote:
The Israelites had a few lessons they needed to learn which could not have happened if Pharaoh would have changed his mind. God had a plan in how he was going to deal with the Israelites and he was going to use Pharaoh to this end
We know God's will by his command.
God's will was for Pharaoh to free Israel, not to have Pharaoh to disobey.
If God wanted Pharaoh to not let them Go, HE wouldn't have commanded him to.
God never wants disobedience, why do people think that God secretly wanted Pharaoh to disobey and truly being the one who supernaturally hardened Pharaoh's heart?
This is nonsense; manipulative deception on God's account.
Quote:
Pharaoh was destined to hell
From his own accord, not because God wanted it that way.
Quote:
hence he could harden his heart to make His work easier.
What do you mean "easier"?
It would have been God's will and more glory if Pharaoh did what Moses said!
We know by God's command that Pharaoh was truly supposed to free Israel, God truly didn't want Pharaoh to harden his heart, and He doesn't want that for any of His creation.
Pharaoh hardened his heart as he resisted God & denied HIS sovereignty.
If God's intention was to use Pharaoh, no matter what if he obeyed or disobeyed, who then can resist His intention?
Since Pharaoh disobeyed God/Moses, then God used the hardness of pharaoh's heart instead of his obedience.
However, Pharaoh was always able to repent & was expected to, that is why he is guilty. Pharaoh would not be guilty if God wanted Pharaoh to harden his heart, because that would be doing God's will, which is commendable.
Therefore, Stop thinking that God's will was for Pharaoh to harden his heart!!!
Not the way you put it.
You make God deceptively manipulate Pharaoh. |
| | 2009/9/1 12:02 | Profile | imnowhere
Member
Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69
| | Re: | | Those are some pretty complex answers to preserve, it seems, man's sovereignty. But didn't God tell Moses that he'd harden Pharoah's heart before Moses even left for Egypt?...
[b]Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.[/b]
In Romans 9 we read that Paul's opponents had problems with this, saying, 'how can God then find fault seeing as none can resist his will?'
God will get him glory through judgement as well as mercy. It's that simple.
I know it's difficult to accept, but as God said, 'This was your mistake, I'm not like you..' He will have mercy on whom he'll have mercy.
God and man can't both be sovereign.
As far as your comment about God never wanting anything but obedience, Logic, how do you explain
Rev 17:17
Acts 2:23
John Piper's sermon on 'The 2 wills of God' is a good read on this subject.
Charles Spurgeon said that there is no tension between man's responsibility and God's sovereignty, for in scripture the two are friends. One can't be sacrificed for the other. They are both doctrinal truths. Man can't be made sovereign to defend his accountability. Even if it is hard to comprehend.
I don't say these things to be difficult. I found them as hard to accept as anyone else has. |
| | 2009/9/1 14:03 | Profile |
|
