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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


Dear appolus,

Hi Leo, I think most of us would agree when it comes to blatantly false teachers, proffesors, peddlers and false prophets. Most of them fly in the face of Scripture and it is a fairly simple exercise to expose this. Now persuading the most biblically illiterate generation in over 300 years is another matter. Yet Leo,if we take your argument to its logical conclusion, we can see why their are so many denominations built up over the last 400 years. The Calvinist believeing the the Arminiun to be ungodly and not of sound doctrine and vice versa. Should each of these sides rebuke and condemn and not work with each other? What about almost every pastor in this country who believe in a pre-trib rapture? At least 25% of us disagree with that position, should we stand up against each other? One of the goals of sermonindex conferences is bringing together people of differeing theological backgrounds, but sold out to Jesus none-the less.

Amen. I concede this point, and hope that I have not given the impression of encouraging rigidity at the cost of unity.

Col 3:12-17 "Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."

Where Mike Bickle is concerned, I will defer to your superior knowledge of him.

In Christ's love,

 2009/9/2 22:45Profile

Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada



Leo_Grace wrote:
Dear appolus,

Where Mike Bickle is concerned, I will defer to your superior knowledge of him.

In Christ's love,

Now that's a beautiful attitude! Oh for more of this in all of us!

Your whole post was very refreshing, Leo.


Allan Halton

 2009/9/2 23:05Profile

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1538
Scotland, UK



Brothertom wrote:
I believe that a "paradigm shift" will soon occur in Mike's life, leaning him to a more "local church'ed based gospel" than from his current "movement" mentality.

Paradigm shift is that your way of saying repent.

Last year in the North East of Scotland there was word going about that a man had a vision of revival that was coming to Scotland. There have been many "words" recorded over the years starting over 40 years ago.

I know that God will do it as he has spoken to me about these things, buts that not the point I would like to get across on his post.

So this man comes along sharing his vision it's the same as others have said. The difference this man is also promoting that we are to seek to see the supernatural. You might say nothing wrong with that.

But this is where it starts to get a bit hairy during the meeting the man who is preaching and sharing his vision starts to lose his train of thought and starts to stammer, at the same time I am aware of that there something wrong a feeling of something ungodly and I start to speak in tounges quietly to myself.

All the while the church is hooting and laughing at this guy stammering at the front of the church. He then regains his composure he says "My angel Gabriel is standing at the back of the hall he is angry with me. He wants me to tell you that you need to seek to have angelic visions"

So whats my point in this post this man was from fresh fire ministries he came with a vision just like we have heard before put he didn't tell us to humble ourselves before God, confess our sins and seek to be Holy and cry out to God for revival. No his message was seek to have visitations from angels the key for doing this was practicing prayer soaking (contemplative prayer) and guess what the devil got a foot hold in many lives.

My friend just because Mike Bickle has had a vision that is like yours doesn't mean that it's from the same spirit.

Oh by the way I haven't heard of Mike Bickle speaking about his friend "Don" or Jesus with different faces for a while.

You can find a mention of "Don" in a Tape Series by Mike Bickle called Visions and Revelations.

Colin Murray

 2009/9/2 23:13Profile


Leo writes...

"Where Mike Bickle is concerned, I will defer to your superior knowledge of him."

Brother, that made me smile. I know personaly, that I have no superior knowledge on any subject :) And God knows this even better. You have passion brother, and that comes accross in your posts. This post of yours was refreshing, I agree. And , just for the record, I am not defending Mike Bickle. I just gave an honest assesment of what I have seen in the last six months. Maybe I am at IHOP to teach them something :) Now wouldnt that be something :)........Frank

 2009/9/3 0:22

 Re: Movements

Brothertom wrote:
I believe that a "paradigm shift" will soon occur in Mike's life, leaning him to a more "local church'ed based gospel" than from his current "movement" mentality.

"Paradigm shift"... Is that your way of saying repent!"

Well, in a sense, yes; the caveat being that there is no direct contradiction in the word concerning being in a "movement", rather than the sole ideas and doctrines that are derived from the mindset of ministry in the ancient apostolic and Pauline applications of the local church.

For instance, let us take denominationalism. Most denominations are but the natural progression of a movement; like the Assembly of God headquarters located near me in Springfield, Missouri. This organization was founded in the Pentecostal movement that began at Azusa street, L.A., California, in 1906.

The Christians that are employed there, [ Springfield ] may or not be involved in a local church; say an office secretary. She sees her livelihood as a ministry also. Is it? Well, it may, or may not be. She is part of the church, but the para-church, in that the practical guidelines of her employment are not necessarily dictated solely by the word and doctrines expounded in the New testament.

It is the exact same for various missionary organizations...the para church or movement is often completely divorced from the life and activities of the local church anywhere; yet it may be integral for the success of the larger vision and practical vision of supply and order that eventually does serve a local church somewhere. It is the same with bible colleges and printing facilities and translators.

In these movements, such as the "prophetic movement", or the "Prayer movement", [ the Catholics have 24 hour stations all over Europe ] the problem emerges when there is no longer any local oversight...and the energy shifts to the cause, rather than the means to obtain the fulfillment of the cause.

Paul the apostle never got so complicated; he kept it simple, direct and pure; All being based around and through the paradigm of the local church, governed by ordained shepherds......[ pastors ], and organized by the leading of the Spirit in each locality. A movement can and does by nature skirt this authority, to obtain the vision of the greater movement or cause.

[ continued ]

 2009/9/3 2:05

 Re: Movements and the Church

2.] continued from below...

Brothertom wrote:
I believe that a "paradigm shift" will soon occur in Mike's life, leaning him to a more "local church'ed based gospel" than from his current "movement" mentality.

"Paradigm shift is that your way of saying repent."...murrcolr

Movements are not "shepherded" or "oversaw" by the local assembly; but usually by one leader, or a board under him that is united in the cause. This always tends to produce error. Today, the Prayer movement, the "youth" movement..[ the "cause", "One thing"...etc. ], and the "Prophetic" movement...[ the "Elijah list" venues, the NAR...etc.] are good examples. They are in no way churches, nor governed in a biblical , plural manner, but never-the -less, influence the church greatly.

This potential conflict is at the heart of evangelizing the World, of bringing the gospel to each and every nation. I believe that it will eventually boil down to the local church, and the nurturing and establishing of the local church, and here, the DOCTRINES...[ which is at the heart of this thread..] that PRODUCE fruit, are not so easily and cavalierly sullied.

Here , on the local level, meditative and contemplative prayer would be instantly exposed as Babylonian.....but on the Event level, the Venue of the Prayer movements, it can be easily introduced as a more anointed and deeper path to access the Throne. The Roman Catholic influence, [and it's sure to come Maryology and "saints"] would never be allowed to root here, but, as it is, IS prevalent, but subtle at IHOP, because Prayer has become the crusade, rather than the GOSPEL! I have witnessed Roman Catholic nuns ministering with Mike on stage there!

Why? Because the cause trumped doctrine, which can only occur within a movement!..not the mature plural Eldership adhering to the scripture in a local assembly.

It is the fundamental difference between the ancient Apostolic church, and the whims and winds of whoever takes up the crusade in whatever movement they are identified with. It always bends, and always will, for it is outside of the Lord Jesus' Divine order that begins and ends with the Local church.

I will leave my argument with this one thought. Who did Jesus Yahweh..[ God Almighty ] address in his last word through the Apostle John, upon revealing Himself? [The Revelation of Jesus Christ..]

The seven churches of Asia....the seven LOCAL churches, BY NAME! There is no other authority to address, nor will there ever.

I believe that my word about Mike was from God, so therefore my hope and belief is that Mike Bickle will "shift" from the "movement" mentality unto the local church mentality, which is the only true model anointed by Jesus.

 2009/9/3 2:40


"We need both the Word and the Spirit. We should be seeking all of the fulness of God." Abide

This is true. I believe this wholeheartedly. What I'm suspect of are those self-proclaimed 'super apostles' who focus more on manefestations and prophecy than the cross and Christlike regeneration and duty. It seems to me that, at the forefront of the church, more is said than done. The pulpit has become a stage show for skits, personal opinion, political agendas, unbiblical manifestations, and prophetic boastings about the church. When Paul speaks of the 'super Apostles' of his day, I think he was also speaking prophetically concerning the church. Here Paul is, who represents Christ's church, sitting in jail for preaching and living out truth.... and the 'super apostles' are out and about freely deceiving and getting all kinds of 'amens!' and invites to exclusive dinners. But Paul still had the Spirit and power of God as God's plan bore through Paul, even in chains.

I believe God is doing a hidden work that is going unnoticed by the mainstream stagers. Hearts are being transformed, souls hidden in prayer, healings that are not in the newpaper or the church bulletin, a Christlike presence on the streets of the homeless or taking care of the sick, humble servants giving to the less fortunate, revelations that are not quick to be told but will be when the time is right, reluctant servants who don't necessarily want to enter a hornets nest of criticizing a lukewarm church but are pushed forward by God and take their lumps. Much of this is a lonely business. I rarely see a church leader live by example. Dave Wilkerson walked the streets of New York city where no one would dare to go and picked up the spiritually destitute for the glory of God. And all this BEFORE his preaching ministry began. Jim Cymbala lives on the streets of Brooklyn and ministers to urine soaked hobos and drug addicts. His church is open and prays 24hrs a day and not in a pious monastic manner, but in heartfelt sincerity.

The OT prophets and the Apostles were not a real popular bunch, they didn't have a huge following. Their power and the manefestations of God were not to prove God's existence or to boast in the power of the church, they were to further His kingdom. And it was a byproduct of obedience, devotion and Godly living. It was the exception, not the rule. If the mainstream church wasn't so lukewarm and blind I would be more open to spiritual happenings. But the Bible says that sound doctrine will decrease and deception will increase in our time. That doesn't mean the remnant won't have the 'full counsel of God' but it means that God is reserving His power for those who He knows will not abuse it or boast of it. He won't allow it to be a source of mockery and it won't be for those who want 'outward proof' before they believe.

Like the mustard seed, His kingdom starts from the inside out. This is where His power will be manifested and His remnant church built. In a world where morality is a political stance, creationism is curriculum, and healing is a nationwide 'tour' we have a lot of work to do. God won't be mocked, He's looking for those who want to get their hands dirty and pay the price first. Paul didn't get revelation, and Peter didn't heal, just because they 'had the spirit'. They proved their faith and devotion through God's school of hard knocks. We don't want this in America. We want the bells and whistle's just for being a church. I won't say anymore here about Bickle, I believe the conversation concerning him here have been fair. Most of what I say is more of a genaral observation anyway.

I just challenge our leadership to stop writing their books, skip the speaking engagements, and live by the example of Christ by getting their hands and feet dirty every now and then. Reality wasn't far from Jesus. At every turn there was a need, a groaning majority of hurting, lost, and abandoned people. The leadership of that time abandoned them and insulated themselves from the nusance. The need has not changed and the church continues to insulate themselves from the glaring reality. They sell their books and write a check to their favorite charity to claim some kind of contribution. Christ was 'hands on' and available. I don't see much of this at all today except in a few ministries that scare people away because they want to do the dirty work.

 2009/9/3 8:18

Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3593


"This is true. I believe this wholeheartedly. What I'm suspect of are those self-proclaimed 'super apostles' who focus more on manefestations and prophecy than the cross and Christlike regeneration and duty."

Good post brother!!

The Word of Faith movement, which I was involved in throughout the 70'S and early 80's had some very good teachings, but what wasn't taught was the cross of Christ, so many men got in pride, and faith became something that was being used to do a lot of personal kingdom building instead of building the kingdom of God.

I am so thankful that even back in those days I was reading Watchman Nee and later T. Austin Sparks, and they helped me to see the reality of the cross of Christ and the purpose of God for the Church.

If the Lord does use us in supernatural manifestations and the gifts and we are not crucified men and women, it is very easy to get puffed up and get set up for a fall. The post on the house churches in China really blessed me, because this is an example of the true Church, men and women that are dead to themselves but alive unto Christ and are manifesting both the fruit and gifts of the Spirit, walking in the anointing and power of the Spirit.



 2009/9/3 8:56Profile


"I am so thankful that even back in those days I was reading Watchman Nee and later T. Austin Sparks, and they helped me to see the reality of the cross of Christ and the purpose of God for the Church." Abide

Yes, it was men like these who God led me too after I was subjected to the false teachings at first. I knew something was wrong and prayed for God to lead me to those who knew His truth and lived what they preached. I started reading Andrew Murray, Mueller and EM Bounds before I was led to sermonindex. We don't have many like these anointed ones these days, or, perhaps they are hidden until the time is right. Regardless, it's been a blessing.

 2009/9/3 10:28

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