| Re: |
The first time I ever heard a teaching by Mike Bickle, the Holy Spirit bore witness with my spirit.
Interject the name "Joseph Smith" into that sentence and this is [b]exactly[/b] what the Mormons say.
And by the way, brother, I have studied Bickle's teaching... I used to be a student of his teachings, and Joyner, etc. We used to belong to a Morning Star associated church. I've met Bickle and sat under his teachings.
You say: "just because Mike Bickle has associated himself with certain men that are questionable does not make him a false prophet."
I say: Who is lacking in discernment?
You say: "I have seen these accusations made repeatedly by certain individuals who lack discernment and are in league with the accuser of the brethren."
I say: thats a cheap way to shut up anyone who you disagree with. Call them names, accuse them of lacking discernment, and call them satanic.
Instead of debating the issues, doctrines, whatever... you simply call people names.
Way to go.
Notice I called Bickle a false teacher, which sincerely believe him to be. I did not call him names, did not question his salvation. Did not call his followers names.
Unlike you... who generalized anyone who may disagree with you, called them names, said they were in league with Satan (i.e. judged their very salvation), etc.
That's just wrong and [b]sinful[/b] on so many different levels.
| 2009/9/1 7:49|
| Re: |
dont know about this man, but even if he was to be a false prophet, i would caution people to call out such thing without present some reasons why we should make such a judgment. To just plainly state, this man is a false prophet... and add no information or quotes from his false prophesies presented with clear scriptures...it makes it a bit fuzzy so to speak, whether he is or is not false i dont know.
| 2009/9/1 8:06||Profile|
| Re: |
I agree... unfortunately I do not have time today to go into it all. It has been discussed previously to the point of nausia on this forum and is available for all to research. I recommend people avail themselves of all that has been discussed simply by searching.
My main point here tho is that people who support their favorite minister/prophet can not handle any criticism of their hero. When doctrines or prophecies are questioned... instead of honest discussions about it... they turn to name calling, judgmentalism and bating.
This ought not to be.
| 2009/9/1 8:16|
| Re: |
We should never debate with flame throwers. There is a sickness in todays modern society and it is tearing the fabric of it apart, led by well known pundits who enrich themselves by trading in hatred. A large part of the professing Christian movement have been swept up in it because it appeals to their philosophy. We then find that they debate their "brothers," with the same venom of their favorite pundits that they watch for endless hours. So, putting all that aside, I agree that any time you are dealing with anyone who calls themselves a prophet, extreme caution should be applied. Many of the people that have been associated with Mike Bickle should be avoided like the plague. Having said that, I have been attending IHOP for several months now, having gone there against my will, being led there by the Lord. I have been continually blessed by powerful sermons that have been right on the money. In all those times I have only heard Mike Bickle speak a few times in those six months, but have been blessed every time I have heard him. To say anything else would just not be true. The only time I have felt uncomfortable was when Lou Engle has spoken. Nothing unscriptural was said by him, but alarm bells ring in my spirit as I listen to him. Anyway, as I said before, the people that I have heard, including Alan Hood, have a firm grasp on the fact that the time is short. While most of the so called church is asleep at the wheel, this group of people at least understand the times in which they live. When I hear false prophecy and unscriptural teaching, I will be glad to share it with you guys, but not so far............Frank
| 2009/9/1 8:54|
| Re: |
Frank... no doubt the time is short, I'm with ya there.
But dont you think this strange mixing of error w/ truth is a dangerous thing? Does Bickle issue any warning to the hearers of these people that you admit should be avoided like the plague... as you put it?
Let's say for a moment that I didn't have an issue with any of Bickle's teachings. Don't you think it strange that he would choose to associate himself with rogues? Don't you think that by him not saying anything about the error that he does associate himself with is in effect promoting, even condoning the errors?
Can't have it both ways. We are commanded in scripture to [b]seperate[/b] ourselves from error. In scripture is says to [b]mark[/b] (point out, warn) and [b]avoid[/b] (seperate, not willing join together with) those who teach false doctrine. We're not even to bid them "godspeed" or let them inside our houses!
So even if I did agree with Bickles teachings... he is clearly disobeying scripture by willingly uniting with those who are clearly false teachers, and not issuing warnings about their teachings.
| 2009/9/1 9:04|
| Re: |
"My main point here tho is that people who support their favorite minister/prophet can not handle any criticism of their hero. When doctrines or prophecies are questioned... instead of honest discussions about it... they turn to name calling, judgmentalism and bating." krispy
Amen. Anyone who 'passed judgment' on a Paul Cain or a Bob Jones would have been treated in similar fashion. Their bad fruit bore them out eventually but there were warnings beforehand. There's a certain amount of integrity involved in coming clean with past connections and condemning the practice of those who are false and fallen. Bickle has cited Paul Cain in prophesy before as I used to have it on tape.... my mother in law kept pushing the IHOP prophets on me with tapes and books. According to Bickle, the prophecy went something like this:
"there will be a new day ahead when there will be no news but GOOD NEWS. Paul Cain said that he had a vision of a news anchor and this anchor started the news with 'there is no news to report but good news'." "He (Paul Cain) said that 'stadium Christianity' will be upon us where we will be filling stadiums to worship God instead of having entertainment events".
Now I paraphrased alot of this but after listening to this tape of Bickle I looked up Paul Cain as I had never heard of him before. Needless to say, I found out all I needed to know on Paul Cain and his backround. This 'good news', from what I gathered at that time was the typical 'feel good', 'good news', Gospel that some preachers have staunchly come against. Bickle has managed to stay out of the 'prophetic fray' but I question his lukewarmness in the history of IHOP and those who associated with the ministry. Bickle was also on GOD TV during the Todd Bentley ministry. Bentley was a protege of Bob Jones who was an associate of IHOP. During that time I never heard much discernment from Bickle on that matter. Like many who were too close to the situation (like Dutch Sheets), he sat on the fence. I know a lot of people are fans of Bickle and trust him. But I believe that he is still holding on to a lot of IHOP baggage. To me, my assessment of Bickle isn't in what he's saying, but what he isn't saying. He may have admitted to some 'mistakes' made during the height of the IHOP ministry but I don't see him outright condemning the false gospel that Paul Cain and Bob Jones have preached, and in the case of Bob Jones still preach.
So I'm with Krispy. We have to be careful of whom we trust. I believe God has shown me this time and time again. That doesn't mean we can't be 'blessed' by a sermon but it does mean that we shouldn't attach ourselves too closely to any one preacher or ministry.
| 2009/9/1 9:38|
| Re: Monasticism and Bickle|
Really the thread is about Mike's vision of the end times, not about his theology or friends; though I must somewhat agree in general that association with heretics and receiving them as ministers doesn't help your cause to be known as a solid brother.
In defense of Mike, He disciplined Bob Jones...[along with others..] in a biblical manner, with the goal being repentance, long before Bob revealed his true colors and non biblical affiliations and doctrines. Jones rebelled against this; and ended up under the "covering" of Rick Joyner and crew.
Paul Cain suffered the exact same scenario and fate; be it with a different perversion revealed. He rebelled against biblical discipline, ran to Joyner's and ministered there. The three of them were integral...[ and still are..] with the demonic manifestations of the likes of Todd Bentley, and supported him and endorsed him at Lakeland last year.
My point is, that Bickle was loyal to these guys long before they showed themselves as heretics, and many , including myself, had a respect for them also. When they sinned, they were confronted. Times have changed, but you cannot fault Mike for being loyal, to his friends, and the Word. I trust mike, but do not agree with him, and he definitely is not a heretic.
Here is the basis of my disagreement with Mike. He embraced the catholic mystics long ago as those of a higher plane....deeper saints than the norm. He believes in his heart that these mystics found god , and every one of these folks...[ men and women..] practiced the "contemplative " model of prayer.
This prayer model is Babylonian, and "Transcendental" in nature...and strangely akin to the eastern occult practices of "focus" and "clearing " your mind to a void, to find revelation. This is practiced at IHOP, and the mystics taught as leaders to obtain the deeper walk with Jesus.
The Catholic mystics were deceived, and the blissful experience satanic, though robed in christian symbols; As the mother, so the daughter. It logically lead to the "Cloister" as the model of the church, and the real disciples...the super devotee's.
Herein comes the model of IHOP....a monastic order, protestant version of the MONASTERY. Rote, non inspired repetitious prayer, uninspired but repeated , over and over, and the same with worship and song. It is not prayer nor is it worship unto Jesus, but as the mystics, it has a form of godliness, but no spirit.
It is discipline, and has it roots in the catholic concept that a SACRIFICIAL LIFE is the most important one to God. It is subtle legalism that promotes the energy to become a high spiritual One, and leaving the devotee always struggling for a deeper commitment, while the peer group...[ fellow monastics..] both support and energize the fellow elites.
It is "high spirituality" and "cold love", for it can never produce real fruit for God.
| 2009/9/1 9:46|
| Re: |
repetitious prayer, uninspired but repeated , over and over, and the same with worship and song.
Ah, yes, this describes contemporary music. Drives me crazy. It is like 'See Dick run, see Dick run fast. He can run." I think my reading and comprehension skills have progressed since I was in the first grade 56 years ago.
| 2009/9/1 9:58||Profile|
| Re: |
I agree with your main point. In fact, that would have been a major reason for me not going to IHOP in the past. To me, this is a clear and blatant weakness of Mike Bickle, his refusal to exercise leadership when it comes to Bentlely and all those people who are, and I say without reservation, false prophets. And I accept Tom's points about the Catholicism angle, although some of my own personal favorite people were called mystics, whether it be Jean Guyon or even Tozer. I personally believe, that despite Bickles glaring weakness in this area, that he is used of God and when it comes to the Word of God, I have been greatly blessed by him. These other guys, Bentley included, were so blatantly unscriptural, that it defies reason that people would follow them.
I just want to state again, I have been going to IHOP for six months now, not because I am an IHOPPER, but because I believe that the Lord is about to sweep away the established church and I am just parking it there for the moment, and of course I was compelled to go there by the Spirit :) I can honestly say that I have been blessed every single week by Biblical passionate sermons. I have also enjoyed the worship which has surprised me. I have no doubt that God is using these guys, despite some glaring weaknesses. He seems to have a philosophy that he will not critizise those who call themselves by the name of Jesus. I have heard him say that, which of course I totally disagree with, but putting that disagreement to one side, I have only heard sound Biblical teaching from him, I would be less than honest if I said otherwise...........Frank
| 2009/9/1 10:09|
| Re: Monasticism and Bickle|
2.]The promotion of hierarchy.
There has always been a hierarchy at KC vineyard/fellowship, as it at IHOP today, that has insulated itself inside of the "movement".It is not a church...and that is important to understand. By dismantling the idea of church, and by this only, can you contrive the biblical mandate of a super army, super disciples, that will turn the world upside down. It creates a venue to become one....a holy and powerful Saint...a "Fore-runner company in the vein of John the Baptist!"
The problem is that it never has worked, nor never will. This began over 25 years ago, when the super spiritual KC prophets emerged, and Mike lead Kansas City Fellowship into a praying church....a radical, devoted fasting group that would fill stadiums and shake the Earth. There was almost a spiritual competition as an energy there, and this created the model and term that I use....HIGH SPIRITUALITY..../ COLD LOVE...
THIS EVENTUALLY MORPHED INTO THE VISION OF THE PURE MONASTERY...WHERE A VERY ELITE AND SELECT GROUP WOULD BE NURTURED....IHOP.
24 hour prayer...[ just like the early catholic monks..] 24 hour praise. Pure devotion...and the prideful idea of becoming the "PRAYER MISSIONARY"!... and people were taught to raise their own support...[ donations..] rather than WORK!...to pay their way...[ just like the monasteries..]
The result is that the weak or pushed out...those with families and poverty and teenagers, jobs, that cannot devote the time the nun does....and the young are recruited...and this has been going on long before IHOP.
High spirituality / cold love. This is what a monastery produces, and is the earmark of Ihop, and KCF..and mike created it all.
The true church is the only vehicle that will ever lead us to holiness. It is largely made up of the desperate poor...families that must work 6 days a week,,,and teenagers, and suckling babes, and bosses and jobs, and taxes and life..
If the church will not function among the poor of the earth; IT IS NOT THE CHURCH!...and it is Never, never just for the strong, or the elite few, who may pay the price of a forerunner like john the Baptist.
These kids are constantly being flattered and puffed up to believe that they are all that...the spearhead of Jesus, the deeper ones, the powerful few who will pay and be devoted to Jesus 24/7...while they cannot realize that the Lord values mercy and real love above all....not a devoted monastic life.
This has been going on for many years at KCF/Ihop, and it has always, and always will fail. The church is for the weakling, buttressed by mercy and grace, and empowered by God's true love among us, and the weak cannot perform like the strong ones can. this is where you divide the "spiritual" ones, in Mike's eyes, and it is gross error.
This is the reason the "Prophetic" was elevated...The "Kansas City Prophets" syndrome, and why Mike has a penchant for the Mystics....they are super spiritual, and that to him is the call!... become super committed and super spiritual, and the modus operandi the monastery, or, "the Call", or any number of titled venues that support this false idea of a deeper commitment.
The restoration of the fallen tabernacle of David is not 24/7 prophetic devotion or the cloister...it is the simple church established locally throughout the church...with all of her weakness, distresses, and needs. It is here that we learn to cope in a fallen world, and how to love and restore our brothers and sisters likewise in need; not marching along with an army of super saints.
God's heart in us among the weak will teach us how to love, and this pleases Him the most.
| 2009/9/1 10:28|