| Re: |
evn the perfect matured christan sinns unwillingly ,,he may not be concence of thoses sins ,but still as the james says stumbles in many things ,,weasly taught this type of perfection watchman nee something similar
jesus did not live like this ,he did not sin at all ,not even by accacadent not once ,,,sinless perfection
| 2012/6/25 16:38||Profile|
| Re: |
hundsane taylor was calvinistic ,,so he also believed in a inputed posional righeosness ,,,
| 2012/6/25 16:43||Profile|
| Re: TrueWitness |
RE:TrueWitness wrote /Actually original sin as taught by Christian orthodoxy holds that it was Christ's nature that was sinless. His physical flesh was the same as any other man's. Christ did not inherit a sinful nature because he was virgin born and did not inherit Adam's sin./
Christian Orthodoxy teachs that The sarx of man is sin!
| 2012/6/25 16:43||Profile|
| Re: TrueWitness|
RE:TrueWitness wrote // The sinless life that Jesus lived is impossible for the unregenerate sinner (by nature) to attain but is possible for the Christian to attain because of the cross and resurrection. The cross not only provides forgiveness for our sins by the substitution of Christ's perfect life for our sinful life but also we died WITH HIM. That sinful nature that the Christian inherited at physical birth from Adam was crucified with Christ and we are now DEAD to sin. Sin here speaks not of acts of sin but of the power of sin which is sometimes referred to as sinful nature today in order to not confuse it with sin meaning sinful acts. And every Christian receives the Holy Spirit in their spirit to live in the power of Christ-likeness. So because of the cross and resurrection and pentecost it is possible for every born again Christian to live a life free from the dominion of sin.//
Very well Said. Amen!
| 2012/6/25 16:46||Profile|
| Re: |
..3 years ago I posted this thread...
Quote: Every Christian has this same question of Jesus placed before them: "Would you be perfect?". The average church-goer would answer that he expects to be a sinner until he dies, always ready to fall in some kind of sin. The evangelical Christian would refuse to answer this question by saying that he would rather be 'broken' and humble, his daily prayer is to be a 'doormat' in the house of the Lord. In their opinion, perfection will only come after death.
Is that not like saying death then becomes your deliverer. My bible says The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26. Death is a enemy not a deliverer.
Quote: They desire to be known as respectable Christian sinners! For the modern Christian the idea of perfection is absurd and unacceptable. He who asks the question will immediately be accused of perfectionism' and 'sinlessness'.
Whatever happened to the Holiness movement
Quote: There is a Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven that offers unprecedented perspectives. This had never been preached before but Jesus revealed it. To be perfect, (not to become perfect after death), the young man has to surrender his earthly securities. He will have to be strong and steadfast in faith, not in wealth. He will have to enter into the invisible Kingdom of God to lay up treasure there where moth or rust do not damage it, which cannot be stolen from him. There he will have to live by faith only. For that reason the Lord advises him: "Go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and then you will have riches in heaven. And come, follow Me".
Oh my dear friend thats the key. On my quest for Holiness and the call of God this is where I find myself at the cross and the requirement to by an act of faith surrender of all that I am and all that I have. Like Abraham who by a act of faith offered Isaac that is faith with works.
Quote: The rich young man was unable to switch over from earth to heaven, from the visible to the unseen. He did not follow Jesus but went away with a heavy heart. Everyone of us too have to make the choice: either a Christian life on the basis of the Old Testament, or a Christian life that makes perfection its aim through a renewal of the mind and through faith.
Christians struggle to believe that we could go and sin no more because they look at there life and the struggle and turn around and say its impossible. As Christians we will never attain any sort of perfection if we remain fleshly in our strength it is impossible. We as Christians can be regenerated (born again) but remain fleshly and attached to the things of this world. To remain fleshly is to remain under the law.
So the Christian who would go and sin no more must be changed from fleshly to Spiritual the veil of flesh must be rent.
W. Tozer has a remarkable statement on the subject of the veil: There is something more serious than coldness of heart, something that may be the cause of its existence: what is it but the presence of a veil in our hearts, a veil not yet taken away as the first veil was, but which remains there still, shutting out the light, hiding the face of God from us. It is the veil of our fleshly, fallen nature living on, unjudged within us, uncrucified and unrepudiated. It is the close-woven veil of the self-life which we have never truly acknowledged, of which we have been secretly ashamed, and which for these reasons we have never brought to the judgment of the cross.
Quote: The Good News is what God in Christ has already accomplished for us and in us through the Cross. Christ crucified you when He died and you were buried with Him. Your old self died and you received Christ's very Life. You were made one with Him. He made you a NEW CREATION.
Quote: you now have a new pure heart and God's very Divine Nature.
In one sense you are correct our old man is crucified with him Rom 6:6 that I do not dispute and I dont dispute the change that comes to those that are Born Again truly these words Born Again shout out that we are a new creation. Christ the second Adam is a life giving Spirit so we are born again spiritually. However I do dispute that on conversion we have a new pure heart a new spirit yes but not a pure heart, I also believe the seed of the divine nature has been planted in the spirit of the man but the fleshly nature of a man remains. I dispute it because one its opposite to what the Holy Spirit has shown me and two its not what scripture says.
Lets look at what scripture says Col 3:8-9 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds.
We have to put off because we have put off I hope you can see it. These verses plainly state that something remains to be put off although its already been put off. Christ did it all on the cross but its not all fixed at conversion something remains to be put off after conversion.
Lets look at where these things that needs to be put off reside things like anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Mark 7:18-23 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
The heart is the home of these things that need to be put off they come from within and defile us, it is the heart that needs to become pure
Its might worth pointing out at this point that the heart in bible means the soul. Do a study of the bible heart and you come to the conclusion its the soul it is speaking about, as all verses will point to the will, emotions or the mind which is the soul and the soul is the seat of self
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:12-14 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness
Put on because you have put on. Again these verses imply that something remains to be put on This reminds of what Paul said to the Corinthians in Cor 12:31 yet shew I unto you a more excellent way You see there is a more excellent way it is putting on bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering and above all these things put on charity, ****which is the bond of perfectness**** again its all to do with heart (the soul the seat of self)
The Holy Spirit is the one who purifies the heart which is to put on charity which is the bond of perfectness and God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith Acts 15:8-9
I really hope you can see it that the Holy Ghost purifies the heart of the believer he is the one who puts off and puts on he is the one who leads across the Jordan river to enter his rest it is him that fills our heart with love which is the bond of perfectness all we have to do is by an act of faith is surrender all to him
Could be a good title for a book ---- the bond of perfectness
| 2012/6/25 16:50||Profile|
| Re: brothagary|
/evn the perfect matured christan sinns unwillingly ,,he may not be concence of thoses sins ,but still as the james says stumbles in many things ,,weasly taught this type of perfection watchman nee something similar/
How do you interpet 1 John ch 3 ??
| 2012/6/25 16:51||Profile|
| Re:murrcolr |
Colin: great post
I realy liked this part
RE:murrcolr wrote /I really hope you can see it that the Holy Ghost purifies the heart of the believer he is the one who puts off and puts on he is the one who leads across the Jordan river to enter his rest it is him that fills our heart with love which is the bond of perfectness all we have to do is by an act of faith is surrender all to him
He that has entered into his rest hath ceased from his own works
| 2012/6/25 17:35||Profile|
| Re: |
Again, thank you for this Thread and especially for your daring comments and treasure of scriptural insight.
When I first repented, I thought of my new Christian life largely in terms of a blackboard ... a sin score-keeper of sorts. Every morning and every night I would close my eyes and ask Jesus to please wipe the blackboard clean.
My pastor said at the time: "Jesus doesn't put a new suit on an old man; rather, He puts a new man under the old suit".
Not long after, I was introduced to the labyrinth of dyin' an' killin' doctrines; the discipleship theories. I chased myself into a dizzy suffocating mess trying to unravel my inner self while desperately excavating my navel.
It became increasingly difficult to continue negotiating between the self that I was and the self that I was supposed to be ... and the self that God wanted me to be because I was so very busy dyin' an' killin' .
It was after many years of enduring excruciating contrariety that I discovered that my Christian journey was no further advanced than the faithful of the Old Covenant.
One day I imagined a police line-up. All the persons were reformed alcoholics save one ... who was a born-again Christian. I began to wonder to myself about how I was to distinguish the reformed from the 'transformed'.
I realized that I couldn't distinguish between those who had attended an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and the one who had attended a church meeting. This greatly dismayed me.
So, that's how I perceived my emptiness.
The imagined 'reformed' alcoholics in the line-up could easily testify near exact what I myself could ... and I was supposed to be the one 'transformed' ... a new man under the old suit.
In spite of my reading a library of theology books, attending church and immersing myself in Bible study over many years, the only thing I had to show for the experience was a 'reformation' and not 'transformation'; a clean slate and not a 'newness of life'. While the alcoholics were boasting about a new day of abstinence, the best that I could hope for was to piously thread water and wait for Jesus to return.
It took me a couple of years of wrestling with difficult questions before I realized that my Christian life was no further advanced than the faithful of the Old Covenant. I had mistakenly subjected myself under the yoke of Sinai instead of Jesus.
In many evangelical circles today we see people seeking a revival; but they do so in the Old Testament way. They are looking for an Elijah or a John the Baptist. By doing so, they testify to be living outside the New Testament and it's Gospel of the Kingdom.
After all, concerning even the greatest of the Old Covenant, the Lord Himself said that the smallest in the Kingdom of God, is more than these men of God, (Matt 11:11). The saints of the Old Testament were living at a level below that of the New Covenant.
The prophets of the Old Covenant were unable to lead the people to a 'newness of life'. And, in spite of all the outcry for repentance, reflection, humiliation, and confession that goes on in present-day Christianity, neither can this help those who are desperately seeking 'transformation'; a New Testament encounter with the Spirit of God. The Lord says, "These you ought to do, without neglecting the others".
Yes, it remains proper and true that we rightly blow the Old Testament trumpet that the righteous live by faith. After all, in faith we accepted the forgiveness of sin and in faith we sought after justification.
But what can Sinai tell us about the Kingdom of heaven? About our living and having our being there?
What can our following after the Old Testament way of seeking and finding give insight into the Kingdom of the Son of God's love?
We are living in a time of harsh inner injuries and damage having been done to people. Neither the testimony of John the Baptist nor any other great saint of the Old Testament is sufficient to heal and restore them for God.
We have to examine ourselves to see if we remain in the faith; if we follow after the Gospel of Jesus. And this can only become real to us when we answer the question of Jesus: "Would you be perfect?"
by murrcolr on 2012/6/25 13:50:50
..3 years ago I posted this thread...
| 2012/6/25 18:37||Profile|
| Re: |
Colin thank you for starting this thread and for your words about the pure heart. Indeed, it is where sin springs forth, from deep walls and barriers to obedience due to attitudes that have not gone to the cross as the deep inner healing that Christ brings has not yet taken place. It is these attitudes from emotional damage and rebelliousness that bring forth the `unconscious` sins because the mind will always justify them. It is only when we cease to justify ourselves that we can be truly justified by God.
If the Holy Spirit has really been given absolute sway within us, then His light shines and there are no dark corners where sin pollution remains. No darkness can remain in a new heart. As scripture says, a tap cannot bring forth both clean and dirty water. We either have had this deep healing and cleansing or we have not a the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
A new spirit is not a new heart and many confuse the two.
A new spirit will acknowledge God and see its sins but it cannot see the source of its evil thoughts. It will think that they come in from the outside, from temptations and then they go into the heart but this is not the way scripture describes the process.
The process is the opposite, the thoughts of the mind come from deep within and the ultimate source is that which the creature loves. Self will is so deep within us that we are blind to it until the Holy Spirit gives insight. And then we are face down in the dirt when we see how much of self was in Gods service. Then the bonds are broken and the man can walk free of sin with a pure heart and know the rest described in Hebrews.
Most do not enter this rest and even less these dark days. Sinless Perfection is a dirty word due to misrepresentation. Man can fall from the rest, but when he is in it he is no longer the child of the devil and under the bondage of `unconscious sin`. Even the `unsaved` can stop his conscious sins as reformed alcoholics prove. It takes the power of God to free us from unconscious sins and hidden attitudes and this is done with the provision of the pure heart which enables Christ to manifest His life and live it through us.
Oh that examples of this life could be seen today. I know it exists because I have lived it but sadly I have found it impossible to remain in it and dont have the assurance of it at present. Please pray for me.
| 2012/6/26 2:48|
| Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not |
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
| 2012/6/26 6:03|