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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
The only person mentioned is Noah, not his wife.


Yes, I know this. It was meant for a challenge to Logic. I was adding a text to my post when you wrote yours. Sorry for the confusion.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/27 13:16Profile









 Re:

Wow... this is kinda of a wierd conversation. I have read this passage hundreds of times and never once made the connection that [b]Logic[/b] has made. In the context of Noah being alone in his tent, and his other 2 sons covering him with a blanket, it is quite clear from the context that this had nothing to do with inappropriate relations between one of the sons and Noah's wife.

The only thing exposed by further debate on this is perhaps perverse minds on this forum.

I will say, however, that I can see how the connection was made between Lev and Gen... but reading it all context it's plain to anyone that Noah had simply passed out and he was exposed.

We look at this from a Western mind that has been warped by the society we live in where we dont think this is a big deal. But in that culture, at that time... seeing their father's "nakedness", and then mocking him about it was serious business.

Keep the text in it's context!

Krispy

 2009/7/27 15:49









 Re:

Quote:
The mark of Cain was Giantism- that is how anyone could see the “mark of Cain”, and stay clear of him.

This is a classic example of "extra biblical" information that is not found in our bible. It's guess work on the part of the person trying to grasp straws as to what took place. Sounds logical, but not derived from the bible. Interesting theory though.
Quote:
It would be part of Scripture. There is no reason for us to make up scripture, just because we do not understand what the Scripture is referring to.

Quote:
We can see that the Israelites are the sons of God by adoption!

There were no Israelites before the flood.

 2009/7/27 16:11









 Re: The Mark of Cain

To deepthinker:

The Giants all descended from Ham and his wife.

We know in scripture the following:

1. There were giants on the earth before the flood
2. There were giants on the earth after the flood

Genesis 6:1-8
1. And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. [b] 4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.[/b]

As far as the term Giants, which the translators in 1881 changed to Nephilim is concerned, we must look at Strongs Concordance to find the true meaning of the term:

Strong's Number: 5303
Transliterated: nphiyl
Phonetic: nef-eel'

Text: or nphil {nef-eel'}; from 5307; properly, a feller, i.e. a bully or tyrant: --giant.

Sounds like a good description of Cain and his descendents to me:

Another reference to the term Giants is:

Strong's Number: 7497
Transliterated: rapha'
Phonetic: raw-faw'

Text: or raphah {raw-faw'}; from 7495 in the sense of invigorating; a giant: --giant, Rapha, Rephaim(-s). See also 1051.

And, finally, the last reference to the word Giants, as found in the Bible:
Strong's Number: 1051
Transliterated: Beyth Rapha'
Phonetic: bayth raw-faw'

Text: from 1004 and 7497; house of (the) giant; Beth-Rapha, an Israelite: -Beth-rapha.


Supernatural angelic beings, impregnating women, with the power of Satan within them, no way!

The reference is to the line of Cain, and were nothing more than fallen men and women, who no longer worshipped God. In fact, they all hated God, just like fallen men and women do to this very day.

We also know that the giants, who lived in Canaan and throughout the promised land were descendents of Canaan (see below, posted in green)

I know that many believers who believe that the fallen angels (Nephilim, only found in the newer versions) had sex with women, and created a race of giants—always quote the following scripture to support their positions:


If we go to Jude 1:6-12 we can see:


6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
[color=990000][b] 7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.[/color][/b]
8. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
[color=990000][b] 11. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;[/color][/b]


[b]By reading the above, we might think that the angels that sinned in verse 1 are tied to Sodom and Gomorrah, and the other cities around them, who turned themselves over to fornication and went after “Strange Flesh”.

However, if we search further, we can see that the Holy Spirit has clarified this mistake for us by referencing the same events, but moved the order of the presentation, so we can see that Sodom and Gomorah had nothing to do with fallen angels. We can see that the Holy Spirit has clarified this mistake for us: [/b]

Lets go to (2 Peter 4:22) for a different understanding about the Giants of the earth, mistranslated as Nephilim by the newer Bible versions:

4. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5. And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6. And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7. And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8. (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10. But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13. And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14. Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15. Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16. But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

So, this tells us that the spirit of Cain was alive and well from the beginning, not the fallen angels who were cast into hell. What is that Spirit of Cain???: [color=990000][b] 11. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;[/color][/b]



Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones has a great teaching on this. You can download it online at:

http://floydjones.org/cain.html
[url=http://floydjones.org/cain.html]Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones [/url]

[b][color=006600]Where did Ham & his sons (Cush, Put and Cannan) settle when they left the Ark?

(Genesis 10:6-18)
6 The sons of Ham; Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Cannan. 7 The sons of Cush; Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah. And the sons of Raamah; Sheba and Dedan. 8 Cush became the father of Nimrod; who became a mighty warrior in the land. 9 He was a might hunter before the Lord; therefore it is said, Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord. 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh. Rehoboth-Ir, Calah, 12 and Resen between Ninevah and Calah, which is a great city. 13 And Mizraim became the father of Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, 14 Pathrusim, and Casiuhim, from whom came the Philistines and Caphtorim. [u]15 Cannan became the father of his firstborn Sidon, and Heth, 16 the Jebusite, the Amorite, and the Girgashite. 17 the Hivite , the Arkite, and the Sinite, 18 the Arvadite, the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. (the Giants that occupied Canaan & the lands promised to Israel)[/u]

Afterward the families of the Cananites were dispersed.

(Genesis 10:19)
19 And the border of the Cananites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, as far as Lasha. 20 They were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands, in their nations.

So, we can see that what is called the “curse” is nothing more than a Prophecy. Out of Canaan's loins would come the Giants, who were the enemies of God and the enemies of Israel. Where did they settle? Right in the middle, and throughout the promised land of God’s chosen people.

However, we must go back to Ham, Canaan’s father. Ham (who was a Son of God) was the one who married a giantess ("a daughter of men", a descendent of Cain). Ham was corrupted by being married to this woman, just like the Israelites were corrupted by the false prophet Balaam, who we find in Revelation 2:14-15, gave information to Balaak to corrupt the Jews “14. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. (Revelation 2:14-15)

What is the mark of Cain? It surely isn’t a black skin, that does not protect anyone from anything. The mark of Cain was Giantism- that is how anyone could see the “mark of Cain”, and stay clear of him. The “Sons’ of God” referenced in Genesis are believers, like Noah and Seth. However, some of the Son’s of God married the daughters of Cain, the "daughters of men", who were giants, and no longer worshiped the God who made them, but their own idols, given to them by Satan.[/color][/b]

God bless,

Walter

Quote:

DeepThinker wrote:
Quote:
The mark of Cain was Giantism- that is how anyone could see the “mark of Cain”, and stay clear of him.

This is a classic example of "extra biblical" information that is not found in our bible. It's guess work on the part of the person trying to grasp straws as to what took place. Sounds logical, but not derived from the bible. Interesting theory though.
Quote:
It would be part of Scripture. There is no reason for us to make up scripture, just because we do not understand what the Scripture is referring to.

Quote:
We can see that the Israelites are the sons of God by adoption!

There were no Israelites before the flood.



So[/color][/b]

 2009/7/27 17:37









 Re:

Logic said:

Quote:
Yes, it does: the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness Lev. 20:11

No, you misunderstand what I meant. I meant aren't you "adding" information to the story that is not there? I understand completely what Lev 20:11 is saying and your saying that that expression is as if he had sex with his Mother. Why didn't Moses put that in there that Ham had sex with his Mother, why leave it out?
Quote:
What is so amazing that Ham thought his father being naked in his own tent something to brag about?

Actually I have seen this happen. This is not uncommon.
Quote:
Why did Noah curse Canaan and not Ham?

The man was drunk and spoke out of rage. There was no law in those days and every man did that which he thought was right in his own eyes. Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a rage.

In the whole scheme of things, an enemy was created for the people of God to having to have to go in and possess the land the Canaanites inhabited. All this types and shadows were all ordained of God to bring about Jesus Christ. While Noah cursed Ham, we can look back at it all and see the hand of God in it because of how the nations were shaped. Even Jacob and Esau, there has to be one blessed and the other cursed. One loved the other hated. There has to be a distinction between what is good and what is bad. Choose you this day who will you serve. There is that question constantly in the world. There is always that one or the other, the chosen and the rejected.

This is an interesting subject and there is nothing wrong in bringing to the table these things that most preachers don't even want to talk about. There are answers to the why's and perhaps you've tapped into some of them.

 2009/7/27 19:49









 Re:

If your theory is correct, then Noah's wife would have been a daughter of the Giants because Noah is a direct descended of Seth who's father is Adam in order for Ham to be a giant............according to your theory.

Since I hold the title of "another gospel", I am convinced that the sons of God were fallen angels who manifested themselves as men because the bible does say that they have Genesis 18:1,2. And in Job 1:6 when the sons of God appeared before God, were they men too? or were they angels?

 2009/7/27 20:44









 Re:

Logic,

With as much as you have historically hounded those here on this forum NOT to pervert scripture, you are taking a big leap yourself with this interpretation. You have held many accountable here in the demand of lucid and logical correlations from what is claimed in interpretaion to what is actually said in scripture. Although you are not averse to interpretation yourself, it seems that you hold others to a standard that demands the necessary 'back up' to their claim in unequivocal scriptural references that leaves no loose ends.

So by your own standard you should take some caution in making these kinds of nuanced scriptural correlations lest you be challenged in the same way you challenge others. As some have said here, what you correlated via scripture concerning Noah and Ham, is indeed, 'interesting'. But it is far from a slam dunk that cannot be refuted by the obvious and simple absence of the necessary details concerning the actual event which you described.

We all speculate certain events and correlations in scripture, and this pondering is not unusual or atypical of many of us. But in our attempts to discern such, we shouldn't say (or even imply) these interpretations as absolutes or unequivocal facts. This allows no room for iron to sharpen iron as it lends more towards arguing points of view rather than mutually hashing out scriptural events that, may or may not, lead to a fruitful context that could shed even more light on the original references.

 2009/7/27 21:30
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

I have to agree with those who think that Ham's sin was the spirit in which he viewed his father's nude body. It is an interesting thought to think of Noah's wife, but I think it is stretching the plain text. I would never have come up with that unless someone had told me that.

I once heard a preacher drop a cuss word, and rather than build a case against him, I decided I would still respect his office. He was off in many areas, but right in others. After I made up my mind to still respect him, my mind immediately turned to the covering of Noah by his other two sons. I believe the Holy Spirit revealed this to me in this situation.

In other words, this concept was not taught by a person, but by the Spirit. Every individual deserves respect. We are to look down on no one. Even Michael did not bring a "railing accusation" against Satan, but only said "The Lord rebuke thee." What we do with an enemy or with someone caught in sin tells much about who we are.

Also, "Sons of God" is used to describe angels every other time in the Old Testament. I think it would be very unlikely that this one occasion would describe men. I believe, like others, that the "sons of God" from Genesis were fallen angels. Apparently, many of the giants of the faith did not think so; but so be it.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2009/7/27 21:41Profile









 Re:

Hello, Letsgetbusy:

A very good post, however I would like to challenge your statement:

Quote:
[b]Also, "Sons of God" is used to describe angels every other time in the Old Testament. I think it would be very unlikely that this one occasion would describe men. I believe, like others, that the "sons of God" from Genesis were fallen angels. Apparently, many of the giants of the faith did not think so; but so be it.

[/b]



[color=9990000][b]What does the Bible tell us about the Sons of God? Are they only Angels(Job 1:6)? Or,are they also believers in Jehovah, believers in God? Or are they demonic angels, who rebelled with satan, and somehow came down to earth to impregnate unsuspecting women?[/color][/b]

(Exodus 4:22-23) 22. And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: 23. And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.'"

[color=990000][b]Again, we can see that the Israelites are God’s sons, are God’s firstborn. This reference is given by God Himself to Moses—words that he is to say to Pharoah[/color][/b]

Deuteronomy 14:1-2)1. Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. 2. For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

[color=990000][b]Again, we see reference to the fact that believers are considered by God to be a [u]"Ye are the children of the Lord your God"[/u] and also a “holy people unto the Lord, a chosen and peculiar people, above all the nations upon the earth.[/color][/b]

(Isaiah 43:6-7) 6. I will say to the north, give up; and to the south, keep not back: [b][u]bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.[/u][/b]

Jeremiah 31:9
9. They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

[color=990000][b]Here, God refers to the believing Jews as his Sons (He is the Father of Israel)[/color][/b]

Hosea 11:1
1.When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

[color=990000][b]Here, Israel is called His son by God Himself![/color][/b]

Romans 8:12, 23
12.Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

[color=990000][b]Here, we see reference to Christian believers awaiting the adoption to be the Sons of God, at the rapture (redemption of our body)[/color][/b]

Ephesians 1:4-6
4.According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5.[color=990000] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,(We are the Son's of God, believers!)[/color][/b]
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


(Galatians 4:4-5)
4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

[color=990000][b]So, here again we see that throughout the Old and the New Testament believers in the One True God are referred to as God’s sons, adopted to him by their belief in Him and in His plan of salvation[/color][/b]

These are all the passages in which the word is found. Here the word means the "placing" or "adoption" as sons. In regeneration we receive the nature of sons of God; in adoption we receive the position of sons of God. Regeneration is a change of nature. Adoption is a change of position or relation.

[color=990000][b]What about the fallen angels? Do they have the ability to have physical, sexual relations with women who live upon the earth? Are they physical beings or spiritual beings?

Christ tells us in His word that they do not have the ability to have sexual relations. However, fallen angels have the ability to possess fallen humans, and vicariously influence and be a part of the sexual encounter, and take over their lives.[/color][/b]

“23. The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24. Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 25. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26. Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27. And last of all the woman died also. 28. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29. [color=990000][b] Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter
Quote:

letsgetbusy wrote:
I have to agree with those who think that Ham's sin was the spirit in which he viewed his father's nude body. It is an interesting thought to think of Noah's wife, but I think it is stretching the plain text. I would never have come up with that unless someone had told me that.

I once heard a preacher drop a cuss word, and rather than build a case against him, I decided I would still respect his office. He was off in many areas, but right in others. After I made up my mind to still respect him, my mind immediately turned to the covering of Noah by his other two sons. I believe the Holy Spirit revealed this to me in this situation.

In other words, this concept was not taught by a person, but by the Spirit. Every individual deserves respect. We are to look down on no one. Even Michael did not bring a "railing accusation" against Satan, but only said "The Lord rebuke thee." What we do with an enemy or with someone caught in sin tells much about who we are.

Also, "Sons of God" is used to describe angels every other time in the Old Testament. I think it would be very unlikely that this one occasion would describe men. I believe, like others, that the "sons of God" from Genesis were fallen angels. Apparently, many of the giants of the faith did not think so; but so be it.


 2009/7/27 21:56
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

There is only One first born, Jesus Christ the true Israel. There is only one way a Father becomes a Father, that is to birth a Child, that Child by the Holy Spirit was birthed in Mary, The only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ the true Israel, not the earthly Israel, who are called the son's of Israel and children of Israel only. Not son's of God as rebirthed, born again Christians who first trusted in Christ.

Israel are flesh and blood with no God nature in them. Jesus Christ was flesh and blood with God nature in Him, the Seed of the Father.

There is a difference in the Heavenlies, where we the born again are already and the earthly Israel who will be seated with Christ on this earth and receive all their lands and covenants a promises, where they will be the Nation God uses in the Millennium for the purpose they were chosen in the first place, which they failed, but God will not, Israel's first place was that they were to evangelize the whole earthly people to believe in God which they will accomplish by God's decree.

The Body of Christ, His Church are already seated in the heavenly realm of living on this earth, while in it but not of it.


Gaebelein's Annoted Bible says it much better than I can.

Hosea: Chapter 11:1-11. This chapter starts with a beautiful allusion to Israel's youth, when in sovereign love He called Israel, His firstborn son, out of Egypt, redeeming them by blood and power (Ex 4:22-23). But this passage is quoted in the second chapter of the Gospel of Matthew: "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called My Son" (Mt 2:15). The blending together of Israel and Christ is very interesting. Christ is the true Israel and goes through the entire history of the nation, without failure and in divine perfection. He was carried as an infant into the land where Israel suffered in the fiery furnace; and finally He died for that nation and in some future day through Him, the true Israel (called such in Isa 49), Israel's great future and glory will come to pass.

But while the Son of God, the true Israel, was perfect and holy in all His ways, Israel was unfaithful. This record of Jehovah's faithfulness and mercy is here unfolded. He sent them prophets who called them, but they turned away from Him and gave themselves over to the Baalim and the idol-gods. How loving He had been to them! He led them, took them into His arms and healed them. He drew them with cords of love and was towards them "as those that would raise the yoke-strap over their jaws, and I reached out to them to eat" (verse 4). It is a beautiful picture of His great gentleness with them. Perhaps some of them were anxious to turn to Egypt and find a home there and thus escape the cruel Assyrian. But the Lord declares that they shall not return to Egypt, but Assyria is to be their king, because they refused to return. The sword of judgment would do its work completely (verses 6-7). Then follows a most wonderful outburst of deepest sorrow over the stubborn nation:

In Christ: Phillip






_________________
Phillip

 2009/7/27 23:55Profile





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