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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 What did Ham realy do?

The nakedness of a man is a common Hebrew expression for having sex with his wife
[b]Lev. 20:11[/b] [color=990000]And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.[/color]
[b]Lev. 20:20[/b] [color=990000]And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.
[b]21[/b] And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.[/color]

Canaan was cursed life because he was conceived by perversion; Ham sleeping with his mother. Noah cursed Canaan as a statement of that reality, not as a judgment, but as a warning to others against following in Ham’s perverted ways.

Noah drank his wine and got drunk, became uncovered in his tent [his drunkenness left his wife vulnerable and exposed to Ham’s wickedness]. And Ham, saw the nakedness of his father [that is, he had sex with Noah’s wife, Ham’s own mother] and told his two brothers. But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father [refusing to further abuse their mother].
faces were turned away, and they did not see their father’s nakedness [i.e., their mother’s nude body]. So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him [because he found out from his wife and his sons]. Then he said [after he learned of the pregnancy]: “Cursed be Canaan [whose father was Ham]…" Gen. 9:18, 20‑25

 2009/7/26 17:32Profile









 Re: What did Ham realy do?

As logical as that may seem, but aren't you stretching the truth of the matter? It doesn't say that he slept with his Mother. What purpose would the blanket be and for Shem and Jephath to go backwards into the tent to cover up their Dad? Too many missing pieces, not enough information to form an opinion. I'll check with another source and see what that says.

Follow up: In Josephus account he says that Ham laughed as to the position he found his father in and he showed his brothers which they were not impressed covered their father with a blanket.

And as Waltern put it, it does sound like a hollywood script because if you've ever watched the Ten Commandments, my God, I never seen so many untruths crammed into a bible related movie.

 2009/7/26 22:04









 Re: What did Ham realy do?

To: Logic

[color=990000][b]What you have posted sounds like a recent Hollywood movie script, from the pit of hell itself. Homosexuality between Ham and his father, Noah? What does God's Word, the Bible say about seeing someone that is "uncovered" or "naked"? Is it a "wicked thing" to see someone else nude?[/color][/b]

Leviticus 20:17
17. And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

The question is "Why did Noah curse Canaan instead of Ham?"

Answer: (Genesis 9:20-29) tells us, "20. And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 21. And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. 28. And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
29. And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.."

Noah was responding to two things: 1) the character of his oldest son, Ham, who thought it was a big joke to see his father (the Family Priest) naked (uncovered- “nakedness”), and made fun of him to his two other sons; 2) When he awoke, God gave Noah understanding about what had happened, and at the same time God revealed to Noah that Ham’s son Canaan would follow in the evil footsteps of his father. Noah was not actually cursing Canaan, he was prophesying about the future of Canaan, a prophecy given to him by God.


Why did Noah curse Canaan rather than Ham? Was seeing his father naked serious enough to warrant such a curse? throughout the Old Testament there are lots of references about seeing another person nude or "uncovered", which God warns against. However, it was also the fact that he had no respect for his father,[u]and it was the pleasure that Ham took from his father’s humiliation that was a major part of the offense. It wasn’t an event that a person should enjoy, as Habakkuk 2:15-16 states:[/u]

[color=990000][b]“15. Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

16. Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the Lord's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory.”[/color][/b]


[b]Of interest to me is the order that Noah lists his son’s: Shem, Ham & Japeth. However, Japeth is the oldest, Shem is the second oldest, and Ham is the youngest:


Genesis 10:21 establishes that [color=990000]Japheth is the elder,[/color] an adjective which we take to mean" eldest" of the three, not just the two involved in this verse. "Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born." The Hebrew word for "elder" here is gadol, a word used 511 times in the Bible, the predominant translation being "great," or some form of it. It is translated 442 times as "great" or forms of it. It is also translated "high," "mighty," and "noble." It is translated "elder" eight times and "eldest" six times. The same word is used in I Samuel 17:13, "And the three eldest [Heb., gadol] sons of Jesse went and followed Saul to the battle: and the names of his, three sons that went to the battle were Eliab the firstborn, and next unto him Abinadab, and the third Shammah." Verse 28 also refers to Eliab as the eldest (Heb. gadol) of the sons of Jesse.

It appears from the etymology that Japheth was the "great" or "eldest" of Noah's three sons in terms of the order of their birth.[/b]

[color=990000][b]Now Ham is spoken of in the King James Version as the younger. "And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him" (Gen. 9:24). Bullinger's Companion Bible suggests that Ham was the younger to Japheth, not Shem."—you have to use the KJV to understand this fact[/color][/b]

Tracing the etymology of the Hebrew word translated "younger" in Genesis 9:24 (qatan, little), we find it used 48 times, with translationsof "least," "less," "small,"
"little," and "smallest".It is translated "younger" eleven times and "youngest" twice.

David was referred to as the "youngest" son of Jesse, "And Samuel said unto Jesse. Are here all thy children? And he said. There remaineth yet the youngest [Heb. qatan}, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep" (I Sam. 16:11). David was the qatan of eight sons, and Ham was the qatan of three sons, both of them the "least" or "smallest" in order of birth.

Just as the order of Terah's sons is given in the order of their importance in God's arrangements, so are the sons of Noah. "Terah lived seventy years and begat Abram, Nahor and Haran" (Gen. 11:26). The birth order can be proven to be Haran, Nahor and Abram. Haran was born 41 years before Nahor who was born 20 years before Abram. Nahor married his brother Haran's daughter, Milcah, which suggests, not proves, that Haran was an elder brother to Nahor.

Lot was the son of Haran (61 years older than Abram), and was in all probability as old, if not senior to, Abram. I think most of us consider Lot as younger than Abram, but the specifics are not given in Scripture.

So, based on the etymological evidence given above, and recognizing the divine method of giving preeminence to those chosen by Him, the order of birth of Noah's three sons was Japheth, Shem and Ham. It is given in Scripture as Shem, Ham and Japheth to indicate the preeminence of Shem and his descendants over the other two sons and their descendants.

[color=990000][b]Shem means "name or renown,” indicating the priority that the Semitic or Shemitic people would have in God's plan. Shem's line can be traced in Genesis 11 through Eber and Terah to Abram. The renown of Shem will be realized when the promises to Abram are fulfilled. "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made" (Gal. 3:16).

Japheth means "the extender, or enlargement." Of his descendants it is recorded, "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations" (Gen. 10:5). Peloubet's Bible Dictionary says of Japheth, "The descendants of Japheth occupied the 'isles of the Gentiles,' i.e., the coast lands of the Mediterranean Sea in Europe and Asia Minor—whence they spread northward over the whole continent of Europe and a considerable portion of Asia." These being representative of a portion of the Gentiles, they have access to the promises made to Abraham and his seed by the process of adoption in which they surrender their Gentilism and become adopted into the spiritual family of Israel.

Ham means "black or swarthy or dark colored." It is opined that the descendants of Ham are the black races, "servant of servants to his brethren" (Gen. 9:25) as the curse placed on Ham's descendants by Noah suggests. Some feel that the descendants of Ham include the races of the East (China, India, etc.).

W. H. Carter, in Times and Seasons, page 221, concludes, "It is thus clear beyond doubt that the order of birth was Japheth, Shem and Ham; whilst Shem was two years younger than Japheth, and Ham younger than Shem. The latter was probably named first in Genesis 5:32 because he was the one through whom God's purpose was to develop."

W. H. Carter proves from Genesis 11:10 that Shem was 100 years old when he "begat Arphaxad two years after the flood." He then calculates Noah's age as in his 503rd year when Shem was born, determining by deduction that Japheth was two years older than Shem from the text in Genesis 5:32, "And Noah was five hundred years old [that is, in his 501st year]: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth."[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Logic wrote:
The nakedness of a man is a common Hebrew expression for having sex with his wife
[b]Lev. 20:11[/b] [color=990000]And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.[/color]
[b]Lev. 20:20[/b] [color=990000]And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.
[b]21[/b] And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.[/color]

Canaan was cursed life because he was conceived by perversion; Ham sleeping with his mother. Noah cursed Canaan as a statement of that reality, not as a judgment, but as a warning to others against following in Ham’s perverted ways.

Noah drank his wine and got drunk, became uncovered in his tent [his drunkenness left his wife vulnerable and exposed to Ham’s wickedness]. And Ham, saw the nakedness of his father [that is, he had sex with Noah’s wife, Ham’s own mother] and told his two brothers. But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father [refusing to further abuse their mother].
faces were turned away, and they did not see their father’s nakedness [i.e., their mother’s nude body]. So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him [because he found out from his wife and his sons]. Then he said [after he learned of the pregnancy]: “Cursed be Canaan [whose father was Ham]…" Gen. 9:18, 20‑25

 2009/7/27 1:40
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2669
Nottingham, England

 Re: What did Ham realy do?


Rev 22v18, 'For I testify to everyone who hears the word of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book,

vs19, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Whether that means only the book of Revelation, or the entire Bible, I'll leave that up to you.

But, don't read into the word of God that which is not there.

It does read like some perverse hollywood script, what logic wrote that is.

What a mind.

But I simply accept what it says in Genesis concerning what Ham did.

Besides, how does knowing or not knowing enhance your Christian walk? How does it help?

Who cares what happened?

Bye.

 2009/7/27 9:05Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: What can we learn from Ham's error?

Quote:
But, don't read into the word of God that which is not there.



Yes, we do need to guard against trying to fit scripture texts into our own epistemological categories (ie: logic). It may be wise to go over the text again and ask different questions. How about these:

Why did this story get into scripture?
What does this account say about the characters?
About human nature?
About God’s ways?
What is the abiding principle?

Consider this analysis:

One day, Noah drank too much wine and as a result he shamefully exposed himself. "He became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent." Gen. 9:20 While he was fast asleep, his son, Ham, happened to walk in on him and see him lying there naked. Notice Ham's response: "Ham saw his father's nakedness and TOLD his brothers." Gen. 9:22

In other words, Ham ratted on his dad. Apparently, this was a very wicked thing to do. You may be wondering, what could have been so wrong with mentioning this to his brothers? What was wrong with having a good laugh over this? Surely this was not nearly as bad as his father's excessive drinking.

Ham's thoughtless response was evil because it violated the character of God. God's primary involvement with man is to cover their shame. That's what Christ was all about.

Ham's brothers, Shem and Japheth, responded to the situation very differently. Their action demonstrated the character of God. They "took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backwards and covered their father's nakedness." Gen.9:23 Their gesture was an expression of the heart of God. Because God is holy, he cannot look upon exposed sin without condemning it. Instead he covers it with mercy forshadowed in his provision of coverings for Adam and Eve. God blessed Shem and Japheth, including their descendants but he punished Ham with a curse.

It is not natural for us to protect the dignity of another, especially if they don't deserve it, or if they have offended or annoyed us in some way. Like Ham, we are more inclined to expose their shame - and expose them naked before others - perhaps by gossiping about them or "reporting" on them. Naturally, we feel very justified in doing it. But that invites the same curse Ham received.

However, this thinking never originates from the Spirit. When the Spirit puts God's laws on our mind, we will intuitively reflect Christ's mission and his nature: to cover the shame of sinners - as Shem and Japheth did.

The sins of others are never to be pawns for us to "play with" at the expense of the sinner. It is not for us to rip off people's self-made "fig leaves" - as pitiful as they may be. That is never redemptive. Our mission is to be redemptive.

"He who covers over an offense promotes love, but he who repeats the matter separates close friends." Prov. 17:9

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2009/7/27 9:16Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
DeepThinker wrote:
As logical as that may seem, but aren't you stretching the truth of the matter? It doesn't say that he slept with his Mother.

Yes, it does:
[color=990000]the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness[/color] [b]Lev. 20:11 [/b]
& re-read Lev. 20:20-21 & Lev. 18:8 while your at it.
[b]Lev 18:8[/b] [color=990000]The nakedness of your father's wife shall you not uncover: it is your father's nakedness.[/color]

Quote:
What purpose would the blanket be and for Shem and Jephath to go backwards into the tent to cover up their Dad?

That would be my question.
[b]Ham says:[/b]
"Hey brothers, Dad's in his own tent naked". (Gen 9:22)
[b]Shem and Japheth sayd:[/b]
"Oh-oh, we'd better go and cover him up, he shouldn't be naked in his own tent."

In the popular interpretatipon of this story, What is wrong with what Ham did then?

What is so amazing that Ham thought his father being naked in his own tent something to brag about?

Why can't Noah be naked in his own tent?

Why did Noah curse Canon and not Ham?

Why was Hams "crime" any wors than what Noah did?

What do you think of Lev. 20:11, 20-21 concerning what Ham did?

 2009/7/27 10:02Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
waltern wrote:

What you have posted sounds like a recent Hollywood movie script, from the pit of hell itself.

Only if you understand it the way you do, sure, I will agree.

Quote:
Homosexuality between Ham and his father, Noah?

That is not what I was getting at.
This is why I agree with your first statment.

My point was that Ham slep with his mother, as Lev. 20:11 says.
[color=990000]the man that lieth with his [b]father's [u]wife[/u][/b] hath uncovered his father's nakedness:[/color]
Ham slept with his mother.

Quote:
What does God's Word, the Bible say about seeing someone that is "uncovered" or "naked"?

I'm not talking about [b]seeing[/b] some one naked, but "[b]uncovering[/b] his father's nakedness" which is lying with his father's wife.

 2009/7/27 10:08Profile









 Re:


To Logic:

I can guarantee you that IF Ham had slept with his own mother, Noah's wife, he would have been put to death on the spot. And if the mother willingly participated, she would have shared the same fate. We hear nothing of the sort in this narrative, given by Noah. We know that Ham and his wife and family ended up in Canaan.

Let's look at the verses again:

21. And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 23. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 24. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

Why did Noah curse Canaan rather than Ham? Was seeing his father naked serious enough to warrant such a curse? It is doubtful that merely seeing Noah naked was the main issue; rather,[b] it was Ham’s pleasure from his father’s humiliation. It wasn’t an event that a person should enjoy, as Habakkuk 2:15-16 states:

“Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors,
pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk,
so that he can gaze on their naked bodies.
“You will be filled with shame instead of glory.
Now it is your turn! Drink and be exposed!”[/b]

[b]Where did Ham & his sons (Cush, Put and Cannan) settle when they left the Ark?[/b]

(Genesis 10:6-18)
6 The sons of Ham; Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Cannan. 7 The sons of Cush; Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah. And the sons of Raamah; Sheba and Dedan. 8 Cush became the father of Nimrod; who became a mighty warrior in the land. 9 He was a might hunter before the Lord; therefore it is said, Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord. 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh. Rehoboth-Ir, Calah, 12 and Resen between Ninevah and Calah, which is a great city. 13 And Mizraim became the father of Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, 14 Pathrusim, and Casiuhim, from whom came the Philistines and Caphtorim. 15 Cannan became the father of his firstborn Sidon, and Heth, 16 the Jebusite, the Amorite, and the Girgashite. 17 the Hivite , the Arkite, and the Sinite, 18 the Arvadite, the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. [b](the Giants that occupied Canaan)[/b]

Afterward the families of the Cananites were dispersed.

(Genesis 10:19)
19 And the border of the Cananites was from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; then as you go toward Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, as far as Lasha. 20 They were the sons of Ham, according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands, in their nations.

So, we can see that what is called the “curse” is nothing more than a Prophecy. Out of Canaan's loins would come the Giants, who were the enemies of God and the enemies of Israel. Where did they settle? Right in the middle, and throughout the promised land of God’s chosen people.

[b][color=0000FF]However, we must go back to Ham, Canaan’s father. Ham (who was a Son of God) was the one who married a giantess ("a daughter of men", a descendent of Cain). Ham was corrupted by being married to this woman, just like the Israelites were corrupted by the false prophet Balaam, who we find in Revelation 2:14-15, gave information to Balaak to corrupt the Jews “14. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. (Revelation 2:14-15)

What is the mark of Cain? It surely isn’t a black skin, that does not protect anyone from anything. The mark of Cain was Giantism- that is how anyone could see the “mark of Cain”, and stay clear of him. The “Sons’ of God” referenced in Genesis are believers, like Noah and Seth. However, some of the Son’s of God married the daughters of Cain, the "daughters of men", who were giants, and no longer worshiped the God who made them, but their own idols, given to them by Satan.[/color][/b]

Genesis 6

1. And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

[color=990000][b]What does the Bible tell us about the Sons of God? Are they only Angels(Job 1:6)? are they also believers in Jehovah, believers in God? Or are they demonic angels, who rebelled with satan, and somehow came down to earth to impregnate unsuspecting women?[/color][/b]

(Romans 9:3-4)[b] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;[/b]

[color=990000][b]We can see that the Israelites are the sons of God by adoption![/color][/b]

(Exodus 4:22-23) 22. And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: 23. And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.'"

[color=990000][b]Again, we can see that the Israelites are God’s sons, are God’s firstborn. This reference is given by God Himself to Moses—words that he is to say to Pharoah[/color][/b]
(
Deuteronomy 14:1-2)1. Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. 2. For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

[color=990000][b]Again, we see reference to the fact that believers are considered by God to be a “holy people unto the Lord, a chosen and peculiar people, above all the nations upon the earth.[/color][/b]

(Isaiah 43:6-7) 6. I will say to the north, give up; and to the south, keep not back: [b]bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.[/b]

Jeremiah 31:9
9. They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

[color=990000][b]Here, God refers to the believing Jews as his Sons (He is the Father of Israel)[/color][/b]

Hosea 11:1
1.When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

[color=990000][b]Here, Israel is called His son by God Himself![/color][/b]

Romans 8:12, 23
12.Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

[color=990000][b]Here, we see reference to Christian believers awaiting the adoption to be the Sons of God, at the rapture (redemption of our body)[/color][/b]

Ephesians 1:4-6
4.According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5.[color=990000] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,(We are the Son's of God, believers!)[/color][/b]
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


(Galatians 4:4-5)
4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

[color=990000][b]So, here again we see that throughout the Old and the New Testament believers in the One True God are referred to as God’s sons, adopted to him by their belief in Him and in His plan of salvation[/color][/b]

These are all the passages in which the word is found. Here the word means the "placing" or "adoption" as sons. In regeneration we receive the nature of sons of God; in adoption we receive the position of sons of God. Regeneration is a change of nature. Adoption is a change of position or relation.

[color=990000][b]What about the fallen angels? Do they have the ability to have physical, sexual relations with women who live upon the earth? Are they physical beings or spiritual beings?

Christ tells us in His word that they do not have the ability to have sexual relations. However, fallen angels have the ability to possess fallen humans, and vicariously influence and be a part of the sexual encounter, and take over their lives.[/color][/b]

“23. The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24. Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 25. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26. Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27. And last of all the woman died also. 28. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29. [color=990000][b] Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Quote:
waltern wrote:

What you have posted sounds like a recent Hollywood movie script, from the pit of hell itself.

Only if you understand it the way you do, sure, I will agree.

Quote:
Homosexuality between Ham and his father, Noah?

That is not what I was getting at.
This is why I agree with your first statment.

My point was that Ham slep with his mother, as Lev. 20:11 says.
[color=990000]the man that lieth with his [b]father's [u]wife[/u][/b] hath uncovered his father's nakedness:[/color]
Ham slept with his mother.

Quote:
What does God's Word, the Bible say about seeing someone that is "uncovered" or "naked"?

I'm not talking about [b]seeing[/b] some one naked, but "[b]uncovering[/b] his father's nakedness" which is lying with his father's wife.


 2009/7/27 12:56
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, [b]and covered the nakedness of their father;[/b] and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.


So, did the sons cover Noah, or their mother?

Remember: "...then [i]he[/i] drank of the wine, and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent." (Genesis 9:21 NKJV Italics mine).

You can't have the text go two ways. It's an interesting thought, I admit, with the references from Levitius. I've never heard it exegeted that way before. But it must be rejected in light of the obvious context and in the conspicuous absence of any mention of the mother or the act of incest (where, in other parts of scripture the Holy Spirit renders the act of incest most clear, descriptive and unmistakable).


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/27 13:05Profile









 Re:



Hello, Paul:

The only person mentioned is Noah, not his wife.
His two sons, Shem and Japeth, in order not to see their father's nakedness, walked backward on each side of him, to cover his nudity with a garment.

21. And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 22. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

Believe me, if Noah's wife was there, we would know. It would be part of Scripture. There is no reason for us to make up scripture, just because we do not understand what the Scripture is referring to. The Bible is the only Book that shows the flaws of believers and non-believers alike. Why is that? It is the Word of God, that God holds above His very Name.

Psalms 138:2
2. I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:[color=990000][b] for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/7/27 13:15





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