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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A couple hard passages that I am looking for answers on like David with a harem?...

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anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Walter,

I wouldn't doubt if they had.

I want to try and address something just in case it need to be cleared up. I think that our modern day views of feminism are in some ways false. There are some truths and good things that have happened but also some bad thing. There are also things with men that have been skewed as to what is the role of man ect.

It is true that men in those past times treated women falsely. I will say though that I think some of the things to be biblical. One might hear that women were treated as property and be turned off. Rightly so in some sense but in others not. What I mean is men are also property to their wives once married they belong to that one. So it is not always a bad thing to be property.

I see the western culture and we always hear of how much better it is then in other countries that are more conservative. However, I see good things in other cultures that are more conservative as well. For instance in other countries men will often hold hands in friendship and not have an ill feeling of homosexuality because it is not something that is really poisoned into their culture. Or I think maybe of the parents being the ones to choose their mates and I wonder if done rightly if this is right or wrong. It would seem that Paul spoke of a man not wanting to give away his daughter then it would be okay. Or other things culturally in this context.

 2009/7/22 12:56Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

I thought about what Ginny said concerning the missionaries ministering to those with more than one wife and what to do after they were saved.

What about all the people today cohabiting together and having children together out of wedlock. They need to hear the gospel and they also need to be saved. I have seen God save people who have been living together and even having children together without being married and then try to work this situation out without deserting their children. Are they not saved by the spirit even though they have not gotten a certificate of marriage as of yet.


Trying to understand

 2009/7/24 20:25Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Rbanks,

Well, this is a hard topic that I have wrestled with. This has also recently come up in another discussion around the same topic somewhere else.

I think the first things is those people if they have had children and such probably shouldn't separate and actually get married and that would be better then trying to work something else out like a dual guardianship.

I think these things need to be looked at in detail and are hard to judge as a whole and easier and probably better on a case to case basis so therefore I cannot really answer universally.

Here is my take on the marriage question you gave though I am still seeking more clarity on the matter.

I believe that marriage is before man like family friends and society, government, each other, and God. I think the main thing about marriage is commitment and exclusiveness. Adam and Even only answered to each other and God. So therefore I would think it possible that some could be married if they were committed and exclusive in a strong formal serious way if it were before God and each other even if not before man and government. So therefore if one does not have a marriage license I think it possible for them to be actually married. I still think it best to get married in the law of man and what not as well and it should be done that way. I don't know why someone would make a commitment before God and each other and not before the government and man it would be a contradiction, but I could see a couple instances in which it would happen. Some get married in other countries and then when they come back to their homes it is not valid. In summation I think that some can be married if they are committed to each other before God, but that it is best and commanded to be married before man and government. Maybe I am wrong maybe you do have to be married before man for the marriage bed to be undefiled I am not sure... I would also like to hear some thoughts on this.

 2009/7/24 20:59Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

anonymity wrote:
Rbanks,

Well, this is a hard topic that I have wrestled with. This has also recently come up in another discussion around the same topic somewhere else.

I think the first things is those people if they have had children and such probably shouldn't separate and actually get married and that would be better then trying to work something else out like a dual guardianship.

I think these things need to be looked at in detail and are hard to judge as a whole and easier and probably better on a case to case basis so therefore I cannot really answer universally.

Here is my take on the marriage question you gave though I am still seeking more clarity on the matter.

I believe that marriage is before man like family friends and society, government, each other, and God. I think the main thing about marriage is commitment and exclusiveness. Adam and Even only answered to each other and God. So therefore I would think it possible that some could be married if they were committed and exclusive in a strong formal serious way if it were before God and each other even if not before man and government. So therefore if one does not have a marriage license I think it possible for them to be actually married. I still think it best to get married in the law of man and what not as well and it should be done that way. I don't know why someone would make a commitment before God and each other and not before the government and man it would be a contradiction, but I could see a couple instances in which it would happen. Some get married in other countries and then when they come back to their homes it is not valid. In summation I think that some can be married if they are committed to each other before God, but that it is best and commanded to be married before man and government. Maybe I am wrong maybe you do have to be married before man for the marriage bed to be undefiled I am not sure... I would also like to hear some thoughts on this.




Thank you! I just love a brother with an honest reply.

I have also wrestle with these same things over the years. I remember years ago a lady came to the church and accepted Christ and you could see the joy. I notice the very next week she didn't come to church and I went to her home and met her children and found out that she had been living with the Father of her children for over 8 years and she said that she couldn't go to church.

I told her that the Lord new her situation before he saved her and asked her not to quit coming to church for the Lord would help her work this thing out pleasing to Him.

Blessigns to you!

 2009/7/24 21:15Profile
poet
Member



Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Re:

I have a pastor friend from Kenya, and Polygamy is a problem there especially when he has men come to him and the whole family get saved but he has two wives..
My pastor friend tells the man he must divorce the second wife, but he must supply all her needs.
I didn't ask about whether she was free to remarry or not, I suppose she would be since the marriage was not really legal to beging with.

As for kings having multiple wives in Deuteronomy
17:17 it states.
Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

Why David or Solomon deviated from this Law of God I don't know, but it appears that God did judge both of them for this, not as speedily as we would presume but when calamity befalls us it at the time seems quite sudden.
I don't know what their judgment was enternally but in the flesh it was apparent. God could have forgiven them, I do know he does remember mercy in his wrath.


_________________
howard

 2009/7/25 0:13Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Interesting thread. I tried to skim most of the posts.

A number of years ago I was watching a documentary about the mormons in Bountiful, B.C, Canada as they were practicing polygamists. My wife came downstairs and commented on the disgusting nature of the polygamy and how evil it was.

My knee-jerk reply was, 'Do you think David was evil?'

I assured my wife I wasn't defending polygamy, but, when you look at David's life it's hard to square God's judgements...

David allowed a census, and he was given the 3 options: man, pestilence or God's wrath. (and I believe God destroyed some 70 thousand men over that sin), yet God didn't say a word about the multiple wives he had at the time!

It's hard to judge right by God's standards, especially when you look at God's judgements and are totally perplexed at times.

Not only that, but when Nathan indicted David of Uriah's murder, didn't God say that if he wanted more wives, all he had to do was ask?

I guess when you look at polygamy, it is neither adultery, nor fornication.

Glad I'm not the Judge.

 2009/7/25 1:54Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Rbanks,

good word.

 2009/7/25 16:29Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Poet,

So divorcing yet still caring for her hmm interesting thought.

 2009/7/25 16:30Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Ceedub,

Quote:
David allowed a census, and he was given the 3 options: man, pestilence or God's wrath. (and I believe God destroyed some 70 thousand men over that sin), [b]yet God didn't say a word about the multiple wives he had at the time![/b]

It's hard to judge right by God's standards, especially when you look at God's judgements and are totally [b]perplexed[/b] at times.

Not only that, but when Nathan indicted David of Uriah's murder, [b]didn't God say that if he wanted more wives, all he had to do was ask?[/b]

I guess when you look at polygamy, [b]it is neither adultery, nor fornication.[/b]

Glad I'm not the Judge.



Hmm interesting insights. I had not thought of a couple of those things before.

The thing that stood out most was in saying didn't God say all you had to do was ask for more women. I will have to look over that text.

Also, that it's neither adultery or fornication.

 2009/7/25 16:35Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

2 Sam 12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

This is the verse I was speaking of concerning God's response through Nathan.

 2009/7/26 0:18Profile





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