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anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 A couple hard passages that I am looking for answers on like David with a harem?...

There are a couple passages in the scriptures that I have wrestled with before and am seeking further clarification on. The topic is mainly on the men in the OT in context to women.

The first is polygamy. I would say that I am quite confident from scripture that one man and one woman is God's ideal and even His law. However, there are a couple thing which cause me to look further on the issue. For instance Jacob married both Rachel & Leah. Jacob was called to marry Rachel. Yet he was duped into marrying Leah. So it would seem that it was not God's will nor Jacob's. However, it was through Leah that part of the tribe of Israel came. So maybe this is just another example of Rahab the Harlot and Bathsheba being in the lineage as sinners and not God saying it is not my ideal but it is not all that bad?

Polygamy again though in that David married many wives. I think there is a passage that tells for the kings to not marry many women like the Gentiles? So once again I think that would point out that God did not want this. However, David and Solomon did this. So maybe one can say that it was not God's will but that He did not come down that hard on it since it would seem He did not judge them. So maybe polygamy is not that great of a damning sin?

Again with David and Solomon. Didn't they have other women I can't remember the title right now that were in their harem, but were not actually their wives? If so how can this then be justified? How come they were not judged or even rebuked if so? Would this not be fornication which is condemned in the NT letters? Or were the rules not as hard back then as also Moses because of the hardness of their hearts allowed divorce? Or because they were not born again as Temples of God?

I have also read of some passages of men like Samson going into a harlot and they seemed to not be judged. Was it not as bad to go into a harlot as it was to a virgin?

 2009/7/21 10:44Profile









 Re: A couple hard passages that I am looking for answers on like David with a harem?.



Hello Annnmymity:

In the Bible, the Jews looked upon adultery as only applying to women (becasue they did have multiple wives from the beginning of time). However, when Christ came on the scene, he answered your question. Marriage is between one man and one woman only:



Mark 10: 2. And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. 3. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? 4. And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away[color=990000][b]. 5. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8. And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.[/color][/b]



Matthew 19: 7. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8. He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. 10. His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

Matthew 5: 31. It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32. But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

anonymity wrote:
There are a couple passages in the scriptures that I have wrestled with before and am seeking further clarification on. The topic is mainly on the men in the OT in context to women.

The first is polygamy. I would say that I am quite confident from scripture that one man and one woman is God's ideal and even His law. However, there are a couple thing which cause me to look further on the issue. For instance Jacob married both Rachel & Leah. Jacob was called to marry Rachel. Yet he was duped into marrying Leah. So it would seem that it was not God's will nor Jacob's. However, it was through Leah that part of the tribe of Israel came. So maybe this is just another example of Rahab the Harlot and Bathsheba being in the lineage as sinners and not God saying it is not my ideal but it is not all that bad?

Polygamy again though in that David married many wives. I think there is a passage that tells for the kings to not marry many women like the Gentiles? So once again I think that would point out that God did not want this. However, David and Solomon did this. So maybe one can say that it was not God's will but that He did not come down that hard on it since it would seem He did not judge them. So maybe polygamy is not that great of a damning sin?

Again with David and Solomon. Didn't they have other women I can't remember the title right now that were in their harem, but were not actually their wives? If so how can this then be justified? How come they were not judged or even rebuked if so? Would this not be fornication which is condemned in the NT letters? Or were the rules not as hard back then as also Moses because of the hardness of their hearts allowed divorce? Or because they were not born again as Temples of God?

I have also read of some passages of men like Samson going into a harlot and they seemed to not be judged. Was it not as bad to go into a harlot as it was to a virgin?

 2009/7/21 11:01
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Hi Waltern,

Quote:
the Jews looked upon adultery as only applying to women (becasue they did have multiple wives from the beginning of time)


So you are not saying the Scriptures said it nor that Moses accepted it, but that the Jews held to that right (adultery only for females)? Are you sure that the Jews held to that? Or did they only hold to that in part or at times? Is there proof of this?

Are you sure they had multiple wives from the beginning?


 2009/7/21 11:15Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2669
Nottingham, England

 Re:


In Genesis 4v19, we have the first mention in the Bible of someone having 2 wives.

His name was Lamech, a descendant of Cain.

 2009/7/21 11:32Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7486
Mississippi

 Re:

Deuteronomy 22:22: If a man is found lying with a married woman, then both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel. NASB

Leviticus 20:10-21 deals with all manner of sexual sins, most of which earned death for the participants.

Nowhere do I find in the OT that it was permissible for a male to commit sexual sins without a curse or punishment. The law "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is not gender specific.

Still your question is why did the OT folks practice polygamy and why did God allow it? Acts 17:30 [EDIT] may provide for you a springboard which could point you in the right direction.

I suspect you have an unasked question behind the one you posted...?

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2009/7/21 12:19Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Enid,

thanks for the info.

I would note that this was a descendant of Cain as you mentioned.

 2009/7/21 12:29Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Ginny,

Yeah it says that if a man lays with a married woman he shall die. But if with a virgin then he will have to pay money and marry her. It doesn't mention non virgins such as harlots.

So I guess David was judged for his sin with Bathsheba who was married, but it is interesting that he was not killed but I guess his son was yet it still wasn't him so I guess the Lord bestowed some mercy I'd guess. Yet for the fornication and what not maybe it is not counted as a very grave sin at least to a top notch level. Because I think he was with women he was not married to and also the polygamy thing he seemed to get away with.

The times of ignorance. That is an interesting verse I have thought over before. I think possibly contextually it mainly speaks of the Gospel, but I will have to look it over again.

So, I think maybe I am thinking that fornication and polygamy and such were sins but not as grave as adultery at that point yet I also know as it says in the NT letters that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom so either David wasn't doing that or he because under more of the OT was allowed to some degree grace of some kind.

I'm not clear what you mean about an unasked question. I think that I have been transparent and have written clearly and openly.

I was also thinking on the issue of what if you are a missionary and a guy gets saved who has multiple wives what does he do divorce everyone but the first i think that according to scripture he should probably keep them all.

 2009/7/21 12:39Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1100
Germany NRW

 Re: A couple hard passages that I am looking for answers on like David with a harem?.

You will also notice that whenever there was polygamy involved there was never harmony but always strife in the family.

In 1.Tim 3 an elder or deacon would have to be the husband of one wife. The way I understand it is that some people were in polygamy before they got saved. Polygamy was clearly marked as sinful, however expelling the other wifes to stay only with one wife would be uncaring. Therefore anyone living in polygamy would have to be excluded from eldership or deaconship but would not be further disciplined for continuing in polygamy.

 2009/7/21 12:40Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Narrow,

interesting you just posted on the topic I just in the last paragraph wrote of. I had before thought that that polygamist should divorce all but the first but I see now in scripture it says that you have to care for your wives if you take them to yourself like for instance if you laid with a virgin you would have to marry her.

 2009/7/21 12:45Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7486
Mississippi

 Re:

anonymity,

Quote:
I was also thinking on the issue of what if you are a missionary and a guy gets saved who has multiple wives what does he do divorce everyone but the first i think that according to scripture he should probably keep them all.



This question becomes a reality for some missionaries. I have heard some will tell a man to put away all but his first wife. Then others will say, "no, keep them but no more marrying more women."

In my understanding, I would say the man in this case should keep them all because divorcing implies 'putting away." In fact in some places these terms are used interchangeably in the NT.

Quote:
Yeah it says that if a man lays with a married woman he shall die. But if with a virgin then he will have to pay money and marry her. It doesn't mention non virgins such as harlots.



This is true. If a man rapes a virgin, he was required to marry her but was prohibited from divorcing her in the future.

Why should the law treat a sin professional differently then another person? I do not see that it does. But what we do see is that the people were not obedient to it and got into trouble for it.

The fact that David was spared death is because he admitted it when confronted with his sin. This is admirable. How many folks today will admit guilt when confronted about a sin they committed? How many will work to justify it? even manipulating scripture to justify it?!

The NT uses the term the 'sure mercies of David' Acts 13:34 to describe forgiveness of sins committed. David, according to the law, was doomed to die. Since he acknowledged his sin, repented of it, God granted him mercy and allowed him to live. (But if you follow this story through, you will see how his sin effected his family. It seems as though from that point on his family was in a turmoil like you would not believe. Sin destroyed his family.) Today, if we acknowledge our sin, confess it and repent, we also can experience "the sure mercies of David."

I often had to wonder about Bathsheba - why did God allow her to birth the future king of Israel? And her to be the queen mother? The only conclusion I have is this: Bathsheba was seriously violated. The king raped her: there was no love affair ongoing with her prior to his command to bring her to him. One does not cross a king's wishes: he gets what he wants and you have to obey! Did God granted her comfort by giving her several children of whom Solomon was made king? Did God orchestrate this to bring the woman a measure of comfort because she was so seriously violated? (Consider for a moment: she loved her husband dearly. Now, here is an old man, a king, and he rapes her!! Most young females do not think having sex with a man old enough to be your dad to be romantic!) I seem to think so.

I know that when one reads, studies the OT questions will arise as to why God tolerated some hideous things and the answers are not always forthcoming. Since they may not be, God apparently did not think it was important for us to know so some thing will always remain shrouded in mystery.

Now we live in the NT era, under a new set of 'rules', if you please. The OT is there to teach us a lot about God, human nature and how he deals with it. Some things will stump a body, like the life of Samson. Yet, if one looks long enough the answers may come but if they don't, that is OK, as well. It won't hinder our faith, will it?

My understanding,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/7/21 13:41Profile





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