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Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Another sad side of the story is that the pastor appeared to have little support from others during his bouts of depression and was apparently still expected to "produce". Otherwise, this might not have happened. This highlights the pressure and loneliness experienced by some pastors.


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Sam

 2004/9/7 14:48Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Scorched Pastor

Quote:
agent 001 wrote
This highlights the pressure and loneliness experienced by some pastors.



I think sometimes the responsibility of caring for Gods sheep is overwhelming. Every week knowing that you have to (should) be leading them to green pastures and still waters.

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I wish the preacher at the church I attend would engage in plagiarism and preach some of the great sermons found here than have to listen to the drivel I get week to week.



Bro, no offense but if that is the way you feel about your pastor, get out of there. I don't know him the way you know him, but in front of us all you have just assassinated him, someone who may be trying his best to be what a pastor should be.

Quote:

What I am driving at is...other words, pre-packaged sermons.



That is very low estimation of the quality of man you fellows seem to have that side. I would presume that every minister in a church would want to be his very best for God. Maybe I'm just a little to sheltered down South, but you got to believe somehow, somewhere that they seriously want to serve God and the people. If the guy has got no clue as to what to preach, and has spent no time in prayer and has no light from the Lord, what is he to do? Probably should leave the ministry, would be some responses.

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I hope he is restored not only spiritually and emotionally but also returns to the pulpit, we need more honest preachers like him. Hope we all pray for him.



Amen! Imagine what some of our pastors would have to say about us. Knowing me, that scares me.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/9/7 16:38Profile
sermonindex
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
Maybe I'm just a little to sheltered down South, but you got to believe somehow, somewhere that they seriously want to serve God and the people.


Hirelings abound in our day and age.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/7 16:49Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Hirelings

Quote:

Hirelings abound in our day and age.



Is it really that bad that it has been turned into a business i.e. Go to varsity/seminary for x number of years and then take over a church, with no spiritual commendation at all. No amen from heaven as to the ability of man to fulfill one of the greatest callings on the planet? God help [i]ons[/i]/us!

I am reminded of a sermon I listened to my Michael Brown about godly models. Made reference to CT Studd and him laying his life down, sobbering indeed!


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/9/7 17:00Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Is it really that bad that it has been turned into a business i.e. Go to varsity/seminary for x number of years and then take over a church, with no spiritual commendation at all.


The little I have witnessed and seen in Chrisitan circles not naming any names is deplorable. From youth that are going into 'ministry' so called but its really a vocation for them as any other job. And to 'ministers' who get promotions into other placements building their way up the ladder in the church organizations just as a business person would in an secular workforce. It's no wonder many people are revoking the entire thing sick of the worldliness of it all and the lack of apostolic reality. God uses everything for His glory, but the judgement seat of Christ will be a very sobering moment for many in 'ministry'. Also with that said I believe there are many that are involved in this type of atmosphere that are just in some ways playing along with it.. but their main focus is serving God and [b]doing[/b] that to which they are called to do.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/7 17:06Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

How did this all start, where was the turning point in organised church where it became popular to run a church? Where was the shift from your typical steeple type church to the executive model...with five doors, twin cam etc.:smart:

It seems that because of what people saw in their leaders it was made to look like a lovely career instead of a calling which it should be. I think that its the suits. ;-) Very simaler to the penguin suit.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/9/7 17:27Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
How did this all start, where was the turning point in organised church where it became popular to run a church? Where was the shift from your typical steeple type church to the executive model...with five doors, twin cam etc


I would say that the steeple house church in some ways was already the fall of true apostolic christianity. Shortly after the death of the apostles there seem to be a loss of truth and connection with the Living One. There have always been ones who possessed and testified of the Life-giving spirit who leads into all truth. But sadly the adherents that saw by faith and not sight gained control of many facets of the organization of the believers. And instutited a physical church body confusing what is physical to what is really spiritual in its entirity.

Here are a few quotes from George Fox, I have been reading alot of his works and materials so I thought it would be nice to share some of them appropriately:

I was to bring people off from Jewish ceremonies, and from heathenish fables,16 and from men's inventions and worldly doctrines, by which they blew the people about this way and the other, from sect to sect; and from all their beggarly rudiments, with their schools and colleges for making ministers of Christ, -- who are indeed ministers of their own making, but not of Christ's; and from all their images, and crosses, and sprinkling of infants, with all their holy-days (so called), and all their vain traditions, which they had instituted since the Apostles' days, against all of which the Lord's power was set: in the dread and authority of which power I was moved to declare against them all, and against all that preached and not freely, as being such as had not received freely from Christ.
-George Fox

I declared unto them that the Lord God had sent me to preach the everlasting gospel and Word of life amongst them, and to bring them off from all these temples, tithes, priests, and rudiments of the world, which had been instituted since the apostles' days, and had been set up by such as had erred from the Spirit and power the apostles were in. Very largely was I opened at this meeting, and the Lord's convincing power accompanied my ministry, and reached the hearts of the people, whereby many were convinced; and all the teachers of that congregation (who were many) were convinced of God's everlasting truth.
-George Fox

The earthly spirit of the priests wounded my life; and when I heard the bell toll to call people together to the steeple-house, it struck at my life; for it was just like a market-bell, to gather people together, that the priest might set forth his ware for sale. Oh, the vast sums of money that are gotten by the trade they make of selling the Scriptures, and by their preaching, from the highest bishop to the lowest priest! What one trade else in the world is comparable to it? notwithstanding the Scriptures were given forth freely, and Christ commanded His ministers to preach freely, and the prophets and apostles denounced judgment against all covetous hirelings and diviners for money.
-George Fox


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/7 17:43Profile
JCGarc55
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Joined: 2004/3/1
Posts: 103


 Re: Plagiarism ENcouraged?

I don't know how some of you feel about this, but take a look at this website and what they advertise as a bonus for being a member:

http://www.willowcreek.com/willowmessages/Series.asp

Quote:
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I got into a huge debate about this with a friend who actually agreed with this approach. One of the remarks made was "why reinvent the wheel".

I'm sorry but if you as a Pastor don't have time to seek the face of God to see what he wants spoken to the sheep, then something ain't right.

 2004/9/8 2:30Profile
lwpray
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Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re: Plagiarism forces resignation of preacher



A reminder:

PRAYER, in the preacher's life, in the preacher's study, in the preacher's pulpit, must be a conspicuous and an all-impregnating force and an all-coloring ingredient. It must play no secondary part, be no mere coating. To him it is given to be with his Lord "all night in prayer." The preacher, to train himself in self-denying prayer, is charged to look to his Master, who, "rising up a great while before day, went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed." The preacher's study ought to be a closet, a Bethel, an altar, a vision, and a ladder, that every thought might ascend heavenward ere it went manward; that every part of the sermon might be scented by the air of heaven and made serious, because God was in the study.

As the engine never moves until the fire is kindled, so preaching, with all its machinery, perfection, and polish, is at a dead standstill, as far as spiritual results are concerned, till prayer has kindled and created the steam. The texture, fineness, and strength of the sermon is as so much rubbish unless the mighty impulse of prayer is in it, through it, and behind it. The preacher must, by prayer, put God in the sermon. The preacher must, by prayer, move God toward the people before he can move the people to God by his words. The preacher must have had audience and ready access to God before he can have access to the people. An open way to God for the preacher is the surest pledge of an open way to the people.

It is necessary to iterate and reiterate that prayer, as a mere habit, as a performance gone through by routine or in a professional way, is a dead and rotten thing. Such praying has no connection with the praying for which we plead. We are stressing true praying, which engages and sets on fire every high element of the preacher's being -- prayer which is born of vital oneness with Christ and the fullness of the Holy Ghost, which springs from the deep, overflowing fountains of tender compassion, deathless solicitude for man's eternal good; a consuming zeal for the glory of God; a thorough conviction of the preacher's difficult and delicate work and of the imperative need of God's mightiest help. Praying grounded on these solemn and profound convictions is the only true praying. Preaching backed by such praying is the only preaching which sows the seeds of eternal life in human hearts and builds men up for heaven.

It is true that there may be popular preaching, pleasant preaching, taking preaching, preaching of much intellectual, literary, and brainy force, with its measure and form of good, with little or no praying; but the preaching which secures God's end in preaching must be born of prayer from text to exordium, delivered with the energy and spirit of prayer, followed and made to germinate, and kept in vital force in the hearts of the hearers by the preacher's prayers, long after the occasion has past.

From Chapter five.




SOMEHOW the practice of praying in particular for the preacher has fallen into disuse or become discounted. Occasionally have we heard the practice arraigned as a disparagement of the ministry, being a public declaration by those who do it of the inefficiency of the ministry. It offends the pride of learning and self-sufficiency, perhaps, and these ought to be offended and rebuked in a ministry that is so derelict as to allow them to exist.

Prayer, to the preacher, is not simply the duty of his profession, a privilege, but it is a necessity. Air is not more necessary to the lungs than prayer is to the preacher. It is absolutely necessary for the preacher to pray. It is an absolute necessity that the preacher be prayed for. These two propositions are wedded into a union which ought never to know any divorce: the preacher must pray; the preacher must be prayed for. It will take all the praying he can do, and all the praying he can get done, to meet the fearful responsibilities and gain the largest, truest success in his great work. The true preacher, next to the cultivation of the spirit and fact of prayer in himself, in their intensest form, covets with a great covetousness the prayers of God's people.

The holier a man is, the more does he estimate prayer; the clearer does he see that God gives himself to the praying ones, and that the measure of God's revelation to the soul is the measure of the soul's longing, importunate prayer for God. Salvation never finds its way to a prayerless heart. The Holy Spirit never abides in a prayerless spirit. Preaching never edifies a prayerless soul. Christ knows nothing of prayerless Christians. The gospel cannot be projected by a prayerless preacher. Gifts, talents, education, eloquence, God's call, cannot abate the demand of prayer, but only intensify the necessity for the preacher to pray and to be prayed for. The more the preacher's eyes are opened to the nature, responsibility, and difficulties in his work, the more will he see, and if he be a true preacher the more will he feel, the necessity of prayer; not only the increasing demand to pray himself, but to call on others to help him by their prayers.

From Chapter eighteen.

Power through Prayer
E.M. Bounds


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/9/8 4:43Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
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Its was the next inevitable step. Christianity has been reduced to method and technology. Tozer was protesting about this trend 50 years ago. God help us.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/8 4:57Profile





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