Hello,

I have a couple of cents to add to this discussion, (which I've glanced through, rather than read in depth).

The first cent is about the concept of 'office', as if it is a title of a position, rather than a function of the spiritual body. I would like to recommend caution in thinking in terms of 'the office of a prophet', because that really is not what Tyndale had in mind.

This is from Romans 12. Sorry about the old spellings!

[i]7 Let him that hath an office wayte on his office. Let him that teacheth take hede to his doctrine.
8 Let him that exhorteth geve attendaunce to his exhortacion.[/i]

I believe the above gives us all plenty to think about, as this meaning is not as clear in the KJV as it is from Tyndale himself.

This leads on to the other cent, which is in disagreement with 'a pastor'. (Nothing personal, bro. :-) ) clintstone said

I would say that a new Testament Prophet has been called primarily to carry the HEART of God to the church. Being that God is Primarily reconcilatory to fallen mankind, I see the prophet in a constant flow to bend the church back to that holiness of Heart, where God lives and dispenses his favor and love, and in knowing the Father, relating that He is severe also, to those who reject His mercy.


The prophet knows that it is impossible to know God, without also fearing Him, for he cannot or will not change His holy nature, and judges all who defy Him. Because he carries Gods heart, He also loves the church, and follows the command to pluck up, root out and destroy the leavens of sin and rebellion, while planting the seeds of faith and Grace on the other. The prophet knows that God judges sin, and yet is merciful to the faithful.


I believe the supernatural aspect of the Prophetic is secondary to the call to restore and reunite the constantly wayward church unto holiness and glory.


It is obvious to some degree that the new
Testament prophet must hear God, and in some instances he will be His mouthpiece; one who carries the Word of the Lord. He will not be controlling! I wish I could say this 10 times. This is a huge issue, for ALL of the false prophets desire to control you , and use you. He will exhibit the fruits of humility, and will be known from afar as one who lives a crucified life.


There are 3 major things a Prophet will do, as well as all in true ministry.


1. He will feed the church of the Lamb, with truth and desire to please their master, the Lord Jesus of Nazareth.


2. He will protect the church of God, with holy discernment and exposing the wicked; both inside the church and without.


3. He will manifest the absolute Lordship of Jesus wherever he goes, and with whatever he does.


The Apostle Paul, and Peter were perfect examples of the ministry of a prophet. I think the term apostle, or messenger is united with the prophet. "Behold, I send my messenger before you." this was John the Baptist. John did no mighty works, but he prepared the way of the Lord. A new testament prophet does exactly that; Prepare and adorn the bride, exposing God's heart, for the body to be prepared for eternity.


It seems that rejection is bound in this ministry. It is the cost though. Jesus was prophet and priest of all eternity, and they sought , and did, murder him. Jesus said; "Which of the prophets did you not slay?"


Needed but tough calling.

A couple of further thoughts.

rbanks said, "If I could add something here we must not depend on so called prophets to give us direction in our personal lives because we are to have an unction from the Holy One where we are to know all things whether they be of God or not because you do not want to be following a false prophet.

We must not depend on a prophet to lead us and tell us where to go and what to do.

A prophetic word is always a word from God for the edification of the body and is to speak to the spiritual man but the spiritual man must be following the leading of God's spirit within him."

Very true! In my experience, words of prophecy have been used by God to confirm rather than to direct. Several times I have had someone operating in the gift of prophecy add confirmation to what God had already told me. In fact, if a directive word comes forth in a prophecy that is new to me, I simply file it away under the, "ponder it in my heart" category and then I seek the face of God to see what God has to say to me personally. We have a Biblical mandate to judge words of prophecy by comparing them with the more sure word of prophecy, the Word of God.

Again, I think it importatn to draw a distinction between the equipping ministry of a prophet and the gift of prophecy as outlined in 1 Corinthians. In my experience, as well as in study of the word, I find that the gift of prophecy edifies, exhorts, and comforts. A prophet, on the other hand, may sometimes have some pretty hard words for the body. Again, however, it is always to equip the body for effective ministry as stated in Ephesians. I am not so sure that the foretelling of future events is a very large part of a NT prophet's function, although I think it can happen as in Agabus foretelling what would happen to Paul if he proceeded with his planned trip to Rome.

I also agree that the term "office" can have negative connotation, especially when an immature christian goes looking for position or a sense of acceptance or approval of men by holding an "office". The five fold ministry giftings are true callings of God, and are not at all glamorous. Those called to five fold ministry need to see themselves as foundational servants to the body who are held to a higher account by God by reason of the responsibility that is given them. They are to serve the body by equipping them for ministry, which means a lot of hard work laboring in the Word, laboring in prayer, and self sacrifice in being more concerned about others than about themselves.

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Travis

Have you ever heard of a lady that planted church's in whales . Her name , i believe , was Gene watkins ,or close to that . She was considered an apostle by the people of whales and she spoke at my church in Tulsa ok. in 1993 ..

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Clint Demoret

Brother Tom , so very well said , brother, and only filled with truth . a most excellent post once again . I love you , God bless you and keep you ever exspanding in Him . Clint

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Clint Demoret

If one is called to be in the Office of a new testament prophet , and He becomes through Holy living , chosen to attain to the office ,in Christ , then knowing future events will be a big part of that offices' gift . The one called to any five fold office is the one responsible to exalt that office , as paul declared in His words ,, " I exalt my office ," this exalting comes with knowing the authority in the office and the author of that office . Jesus said we have not because we ask not . I ask God , for everything He has put into the office He has called me to , to function in me so that i have the vision of it , and not let it be unexalted and hidden from who it is for . When i stay in a constant exspectation of God's office , He's called me too , to be revealed to me ,that is when i see it and therefore i exult what i have seen by shareing it with whoever i am supposed to . We must be willing to Go into all the world . being willing to Go , is key . it was in the going that Paul exalted His office . It was in His praying that the functions of that office were revealed to Him personally . We must ask . to me there are three great invitations of Christ Jesus our Lord and Lord of All , they are Come ,,,, Abide ,,, and ,,, ASK . I am so Happy that these have been given to us all , and that our JOY can be FULL .. Clint

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Clint Demoret

sot he prophet is to equip the saints for the work

what work will the saints do?

im trying to simplify this in my head, a builder will teacher how to build, plumber will teach the apprentice to plumb,

does this pattern fit? will a prophet teach saints how to prophesy? what specific tools will a prophet put in a saints hands? is it more directing their hearts to God, or are there practical "doing" things involved?

an example would be an evangelist, he may bring a word that will convict and turn the heart to God, he may teach and enlighten the mind and understanding, he will teach people how to preach the gospel, and they will go and "do" it

I think you have to include the exposition of the written word of God in 'prophecy', and remember Eph 4:15, 16. If every part of the body is functioning as it should, the body will grow. A prophet should restrict him or herself to speaking what God has given, only, and should resist every temptation to add to His message.

Remember, it is the word that holds together the whole universe. The word of God is above His name by His own choice. His word builds us up, and Ephesians explains in several ways why that is desirable. Prophetic utterance is only one part of how that happens.

And, the saints are to be being equipped for the work of the ministry - service - in whatever field they themselves have been called or gifted.

lydian: The obvious answer is "to do the work of the ministry.", but I think that I am probably begging the question and not helping at all. Obviously we are all called to fulfill the work of the ministry. This work has many facets. Obviously it goes far beyond mere evangelism of the lost. To go with your example, a person whom God has called to the equipping ministry of evangelist in the body of Christ will obviously instill in the body His passion for winning the lost and be able to teach them how to effectively do this work. Just using this example it would appear that evangelists teach us how to evangelize, teachers teach us how to teach, etc. We can look closer at apostles for example. The apostle obviously does not teach the body how to be apostles. One never decides to become an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher in the sense of having the calling to equipping ministry on their life. These are God's callings on a person's life. Apostles, among other things, are gifted to identify callings on people's lives and serve to bring them into maturity and set them into those positions. They often give spiritual oversight to ministers or ministries, not in a hierarchical sense, but in the sense of a spiritual father. Teachers do not prepare the body to teach as much as they use their calling as a teacher to instill sound doctrinal foundation under the body. With this understanding of scripture, the body can minister more effectively. The following are five functions of a prophet that I think can be supported Biblically.
- Reveal the mind of Christ and give specific instructions concerning his will (note, we don't do things because "a prophet says so.", but this does not mean that prophets cannot or do not function in this capacity."
- Unveil revelation and illumination and inspired application of the Word
- Give confirmation and witness in various ways through their ministry
- Relate divine direction to the Church and churches (Again, see note above)
- Elicit repentance, reformation, and restoration
Notice that none of these things has anything to do with teaching anyone to prophecy, but provides equipping ministry in a way that is unique to a prophet. It is not like a plumber teaching how to plumb. It is more like the roll of Mother and Father in bringing a child into maturity. A mother has specific God given gifts that are different from a father. Without both imparting into a child's life, the child will grow up with imbalances and difficulties to overcome. The child needs both the gift of father and mother to come into full maturity. So it is with the church. The body of Christ needs all five of the equipping ministries to be functioning and imparting to the body to come into proper maturity. That is exactly what Eph. 4:12-16 is saying. Hope that helps.

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Travis

hi twayneb,

thanks for that, that has really helped me a lot, makes a lot of sense

"It is not like a plumber teaching how to plumb. It is more like the roll of Mother and Father in bringing a child into maturity. A mother has specific God given gifts that are different from a father. Without both imparting into a child's life, the child will grow up with imbalances and difficulties to overcome. The child needs both the gift of father and mother to come into full maturity. So it is with the church. The body of Christ needs all five of the equipping ministries to be functioning and imparting to the body to come into proper maturity. That is exactly what Eph. 4:12-16 is saying. Hope that helps."

thats brilliant. i can totally see that. so the Apostle is like grandad, the teacher like dad, the prophet like mother, the evangelist like big brother(who shows you how to play ball)haha :-)