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rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

ADisciple,

i was only clarifying again the their was no controversy with me in case someone was thinking there was. Sorry that cause you to miss the rest of my post.

I said in an earlier post that I very much agreed with you but down further in my last post I was trying to say that no matter where we find ourselves we need to workout our own salvation.

Sorry you think I missed the point of your post.

Grace to you!

 2009/7/20 16:30Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
I was thinking just the other day that if I wasn’t preaching it would probably be hard to find a church in this day and time. Whether we are in a building or house the presence of God is an absolute and also the leadership following God. We must be a part of an assembly that is preaching the word with the anointing of the Holy Spirit and also teaching the word by the Holy Spirit. There must be oversight and responsibility. We must be obedient to God if we are going to be full of the Holy Spirit.




Quote:
I said in an earlier post that I very much agreed with you but down further in my last post I was trying to say that no matter where we find ourselves we need to workout our own salvation.



I agree - it matters much less where we meet then does our relationship with God. I have meet numerous house church goers who are bitter and angry at the IC and as result become, un-loving, judgmental, Pharisitical, legalistic and rebellious against God appointed authority. This is as much error as found in the IC. Where ever God has placed us, we must focus first on our relationship with Him. And I have meet many IC people who truly love God, seek after Him and are filled with the fruit of the Spirit. On the other hand I have meet many wonderful and powerful men and women of God who are house church members and IC people who are compromised, living in sin and know nothing of God.

We must also remember, that many of the men who are featured on this website, who have taught us and become fathers in the faith for many of us are part of what many condemn as IC - such as

David Wilkerson
Paris Readhead
A.W. Tozer
Zac Poonen
Carter Conlon
Chuck Smith
Charles Spurgeon
Paul Washer
K.P. Yohannan
John Piper
etc.
etc.
etc.

The bottom lines is we must seek where God wants us and seek first our relationship with Him. There are both good and bad in both IC and house church. I am not first concerned with becoming the "right looking thing" - I am first concerned with drawing closer to God.

Patrick
www.jonahproject.org


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2009/7/20 17:19Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

Christisking wrote:
We must also remember, that many of the men who are featured on this website, who have taught us and become fathers in the faith for many of us are part of what many condemn as IC - such as

David Wilkerson
Paris Readhead
A.W. Tozer
Zac Poonen
Carter Conlon
Chuck Smith
Charles Spurgeon
Paul Washer
K.P. Yohannan
John Piper
etc.
etc.
etc.



You are right, and some of the ones you listed, along with many others, have greatly encouraged me over the years.

But we are in the beginnings of a spiritual revolution that is going to see restored the original pattern of church the early apostles and prophets established. Think of the implications of that, the shaking that that's going to cause! But only going back to that can bring about the end those early ones were seeking, the end God has in mind: "a glorious church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing..."

No spots, or blemishes! No wrinkles, either! A church in which there is no "oldness" but is totally renewed in the Spirit of the mind, and walking with her Lord in "newness of life" in the total lordship of the Spirit.

I sometimes sing to myself that old song of William Booth's, Send the Fire. It has this line in it:
"Send the fire, send the fire, send the fire: to burn up every trace of sin, to bring the light and glory in; the revolution now begin, send the fire send the fire, send the fire."

It's far far more than a revival God has in mind these days! A revolution! But do we actually want it, considering the implications? Great, if He "revives" my church... Wonderful... if it means we can carry on much the same in an old order familiar to us. But what if what He has in mind means seeing my church consumed in the flames as He brings forth what HE has in mind, and an entirely new Order?

Makes you tremble in your knees, thinking about it.

..........

...It's okay Rbanks, I wasn't offended. :-) It's just that I got the impression from one of your posts that you were somewhat in a hurry about something, and maybe had missed what I wrote. I just wanted to make sure you hadn't missed the main point of my post.

...Thanks, rdg, and others, who expressed encouragement with what I shared.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/7/20 19:44Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The bottom lines is we must seek where God wants us and seek first our relationship with Him.


This should be correct for all of us.

It doesn't matter whether Paul Washer, John Piper, Chuck Smith Carter Conlon, etc... are part of the IC or if they were part of house church. I choose to follow the Lord, not a man.

reformer

 2009/7/20 20:13
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Quote:

Christisking wrote:
Quote:
I was thinking just the other day that if I wasn’t preaching it would probably be hard to find a church in this day and time. Whether we are in a building or house the presence of God is an absolute and also the leadership following God. We must be a part of an assembly that is preaching the word with the anointing of the Holy Spirit and also teaching the word by the Holy Spirit. There must be oversight and responsibility. We must be obedient to God if we are going to be full of the Holy Spirit.




Quote:
I said in an earlier post that I very much agreed with you but down further in my last post I was trying to say that no matter where we find ourselves we need to workout our own salvation.



I agree - it matters much less where we meet then does our relationship with God. I have meet numerous house church goers who are bitter and angry at the IC and as result become, un-loving, judgmental, Pharisitical, legalistic and rebellious against God appointed authority. This is as much error as found in the IC. Where ever God has placed us, we must focus first on our relationship with Him. And I have meet many IC people who truly love God, seek after Him and are filled with the fruit of the Spirit. On the other hand I have meet many wonderful and powerful men and women of God who are house church members and IC people who are compromised, living in sin and know nothing of God.

We must also remember, that many of the men who are featured on this website, who have taught us and become fathers in the faith for many of us are part of what many condemn as IC - such as

David Wilkerson
Paris Readhead
A.W. Tozer
Zac Poonen
Carter Conlon
Chuck Smith
Charles Spurgeon
Paul Washer
K.P. Yohannan
John Piper
etc.
etc.
etc.

The bottom lines is we must seek where God wants us and seek first our relationship with Him. There are both good and bad in both IC and house church. I am not first concerned with becoming the "right looking thing" - I am first concerned with drawing closer to God.

Patrick
www.jonahproject.org




Thank you brother Patrick for the remarkable way you brought out the truth from my posts and also brought something to this thread that was so important. I thank God for you brother because you really brought profound truth to the forefront. I was hoping one of the moderators or many of the other gifted writers on SI would have seen what you just so clearly brought out.

I appreciate the many Christians on SI but I must say that most people are not willing to take inventory of their spiritual walk with God. I took a risk starting this thread but God has helped me persevere even against a lot of opposition and even taking a chance at being dislike by so many people on SI. Anyone can search this thread and see, although I started out with some very strong words at the beginning of this thread challenging this book and it’s writers with error mixed in with truth and also saying we will be held accountable for leading people wrong. I was called so many things and was spoken to so harshly by many on here and I didn’t get any support whatsoever from any of the moderators except discouragement. I thought they would see what you brought out so elegantly concerning all the great preachers on SI that were apart of the IC. Nevertheless I persevered by the grace of God and did not rail back nor speak harshly to anyone because we are brethren and we are to love one another. I have learned that when people discouraged you then you can encourage yourself in the Lord. I have learned that sometimes you may feel like you are standing alone and nobody sees what you are seeing but God is always faithful to see us through.

It is tough sometimes to speak the truth and nothing but the truth when it may rub someone else the wrong way according to them and most people are bias to the group that they have a major interest in. I also notice that some said though they don’t agree with everything in the book they were willing to look at the good that some said they got out of the book without giving any encouragement whatsoever to the truth I was saying.

I thank my God that he encourages me all the time, and concerning his Word, there is nothing in it, that any of us are to disagree with, but when we are bias toward a certain agenda of our own when we write a book, then there will be disagreement concerning what is really the truth.

Blessings to you!

 2009/7/21 0:28Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Mr. Banks,

Still going on and on with this I see. Somehow you are missing the forest for the trees and I want to get at the root of the matter ...

From your original post;

[i]You call yourself a Christian and start telling someone else how to live and serve God you will be held accountable for those people you influence.

The two individuals who wrote “pagan christianity” will answer to God for how they represented the church that Jesus suffered for.

Blessings to all!



_________________
respectfully submitted by rbanks[/i]

I find this a quagmire of opinion when you have;

A) Not read the book
B) Find no duplicity in your own words
C) Add "respectfully" and "Blessings" to seemingly soften the accusations.
D) Have not read the book!

A scripture for you;

[i]Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?[/i] Joh 7:51

This is my beef with many, many things these days, poor research, the seemingly ability to give a piece of our minds that we cannot afford to give on anything under the sun without doing and true due diligence. How do tales and fables and misrepresentations get started and prolonged but by this very method? It is not only 'unfair', it is beneath us who proclaim to be the holders of [i]truth[/i].

[i]"I am sorry if I offended anyone but I found it easy to write the way I did because of the introduction and then proceeding to call those entire things pagan just because they can’t be found specifically in the bible. Everything is not pagan just because it’s not written word for word in the bible. However I do believe a lot is pagan going on in religious settings today but I believe we must be [b][u]accurate[/u][/b] in what they are. It is also alright brother for you to be harsh to me and I accept your apology before you did it and there are no hard feelings on my part toward you but only love in the Lord. I will give the hypocrisy thought more consideration, but I will not try to defend myself if you think I was, but let the Lord be my judge."[/i]

I don't believe you believe it yourself - If you wanted to be accurate, you would go to the source material itself and draw your conclusions. Again, this truly bothers on any number of levels - Christians complaining and tearing apart things they do not truly understand. How many have ripped into Calvin and have never read his own works? Same with Arminius, same with a whole host of saints down through the ages - Stealing from other mens opinions and conjectures and making them their own, and that doesn't seem to bother than whatsoever. It is very uncanny to me and what I do mean strictly by duplicity ... [i]Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?[/i]

Too often we are all the way into the details that are based on a shaky contextual foundation, to try and reel that back in, to say 'wait a minute', did you consider source material? Have you indeed 'read the book', the article, the biography what have you is like trying to get the horses back in after they have left the corral.

This feeds into a large part of what was attempted in [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=28202&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Procterandgambleites[/url]- Misrepresentation and those things that are lead out of them - Fear and fear mongering, tall tales - Poor research ... source material, etc. etc.


Quote:
Krispy;

Oh boy... opinions on a book by two people who haven't even read it. You must be kidding me.

You know the old saying "dont judge a book by it's cover"? ... well dont judge a book unless you've read it either.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear rbanks,

Since you made us talk so long on the topic the least you can do is read the book and then come back and give us a long rant. :) At least this way we all would have got something from the conversation. :)

God bless you all,
Sarah

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I googled 'pagan Christianity' and was appalled at what I found - such gross ignorance on the part of those writers, [b]not the ones of this book[/b]. So, I ordered it from Amazon and hope to read it for myself.

What I found on the web left me shaking my head....those writers have no clue of Judaism, have no clue of temple worship, the OT law.

Ginny



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Forget the perception of whether you liked\disliked, encouraged\discouraged Banks - That's not the issue. Actually, I do have some encouragement for you ...

Read the book!

Shall we send you a copy?

I would take very seriously just what it is we do in and with Joh 7:51 - That root and those impulses ...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/7/21 8:14Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Mr. Banks,


Forget the perception of whether you liked\disliked, encouraged\discouraged Banks - That's not the issue. Actually, I do have some encouragement for you ...

Read the book!

Shall we send you a copy?

I would take very seriously just what it is we do in and with Joh 7:51 - That root and those impulses ...





Thanks Brother Mike for the encouragement and no need to go through the trouble of sending me a copy of the book.

I thank everyone for their contributions to this thread and I will take what I have learned from this experience. I apologize to those who I may have offended by not having read the book but only reading many reviews concerning the book positive and negative. I read from what I felt as reliable resources and also the fruit that many gained from this book. I read from respectable Christian leaders who stated that he called a lot of Christian practices pagan just because he couldn’t find it in scriptures when many things are not exactly given in details in scripture.

I was hoping someone who has read the book could prove me wrong or right concerning the attitudes this book can cause toward the IC believers. I hope though that this thread will cause us all no matter where we are serving the Lord Jesus Christ to have better attitudes toward one another.

Again, I am sorry that I have not personally read the book and will now bow out gracefully from this thread. I appreciate all the encouragement and advice you have given me.

Blessings to you all!

 2009/7/21 9:27Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Christisking wrote:

We must also remember, that many of the men who are featured on this website, who have taught us and become fathers in the faith for many of us are part of what many condemn as IC - such as
...
The bottom lines is we must seek where God wants us and seek first our relationship with Him. There are both good and bad in both IC and house church. I am not first concerned with becoming the "right looking thing" - I am first concerned with drawing closer to God.



Patrick,

Firstly, allow me a disclaimer. I am a "house churcher" who attends an IC. I hope that demonstrates something of an "unbiased nature" in my post. I am one who has not rejected all in the IC, as well as being one who does not endorse all in the house church movement. Having said all that, I do have some serious issues with the IC, which don't need to be raised here, in this thread.

All that established, I'd like to point out a minor flaw in the logic of your post. I have a deep appreciation for what Martin Luther did, in regards to leading the Church out of Rome, and yet I am keenly aware that he would brand me as a "fanatic" for believing in "Believer's Baptism".

J Edwin Orr was someone else that I have respected greatly, for his insight in revival, and yet he endorsed the Vatican II council. Billy Graham's early evangelism was inspirational, and yet he is connected with Rome, and Freemasonry.

My point in raising this, is simply to say that just because someone is of a certain religious system, does not justify the system they come from. "Drawing closer to God" is no excuse to ignore grievous error. Interestingly, every generation of believers has considered something to be trivial, which those who followed have realised to be erroneous.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2009/7/21 9:34Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:

I find this a quagmire of opinion when you have;

A) Not read the book
B) Find no duplicity in your own words
C) Add "respectfully" and "Blessings" to seemingly soften the accusations.
D) Have not read the book!



Is there an echo in this post. :-P I was expecting to read, "And did I mention, 'Read the book'?" at the end of it.

Love ya Mike. :-D


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2009/7/21 9:39Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

rbanks wrote:
I am sorry that I have not personally read the book and will now bow out gracefully from this thread. I appreciate all the encouragement and advice you have given me.



Mr Banks,

Well I must say, it takes a special kind of guy to make that last post you made. It reminds me of something I heard Art Katz say:

Quote:
There is more hope for a man in error, who's been persuaded of his rectitude, but is in error, but is going some place in his error, is in movement towards Damascus in his well meaning intention and zeal, however wrong, is a greater candidate, than some starchy stick in the mud pew sitter, who has the technical qualification and can recite its creedo, as a phraseological saint, but is not in motion.



Keep moving, bro. Keep moving.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2009/7/21 9:44Profile





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