once i did a study on Calvins 5 points, i found out they where not really his, or he did not pen them down as in five points, after that i found there was 7 point calvinist and even 11 point i think if i remember right, later i found the arminian 5 points, and some other "systems" of theology, or principles if you will, and after studying for my self i came to the conclusion that my system of theology also was going to consist of points, after much consideration i found there was only one point


Jesus Christ

I came to the conclusion he is my righteousness, y sanctification, in him all heavenly riches are given me, it is to his image i am predestined to become, it is in his steps i should walk, it is he who can keep me from falling even once, it is he who died for me, it is he who rose for me, it is he who intercede for me, it is he who baptizes me in the Holy Spirit, it is he who will come back for me, it is in his name all my prayers are heard, it is by his blood i can come to the most holy place.


It is by his mercy, by his grace, by his will he created me, he recreated me in the birth from above. He gave me a new heart, he works in me.

my point is Jesus Christ, my system of theology is Jesus Christ, my defense when talking to people i think are maybe in error somehow, mildly or severly i preach Christ, when i encurage people i can preach Christ, when i warn people i can preach Christ. When i comfort people i can preach Christ, when i pray for people i can come to Christ.


my point is Jesus Christ

some have called me immature for this view, but after much study i found all other points in all system fail, no matter the side, the only thing that will remain is Jesus Christ, on that day all theologians, all system of theology, how ever right will vanish by this one, Jesus Christ, he is our salvation, he is our joy, he is our everything, in him is eternal life, in him everything ever created is, and for him.

I like John Wesley for many reasons, but for one when he preached he said [i]I offer men Christ[/i]....

do we offer men Christ or a system of theology they need read volumes of books and yet end up more confused then the simple truth of Jesus Christ that even a small child can understand, sometimes i can read a verse to my seven year old girl, and she believe it and understand it just as it says, but the "wise" of this world have debated it for hundreds of years and still are in the very same spot as where the discussion started.

When i was once in an institution they told me, [i]Christian, do you know one definition for mentally insane? I responded no.... he said it is when someone do the same thing over and over again, but expects a different result every time, not being able to see from past experiences[/i]

dont know how good a definition that is, i am sure there are hundred more, but i remember it well, and yet so often we do the same mistake over and over even as our fathers have done before us in the faith, but yet we expect a different result.

I suggest we go about it a different way, let us walk after Christ, preach what he preached and offer him to men, instead of so much theology, I once asked a man i have much respect for, how can we be sure to avoid being mislead and deceived in this day we are living with so much heresy and deception in the church? he said, read the gospels, study Jesus life, if you follow him you can never go wrong or lost.

I think it was the best advice any man could give.


Follow him saints, and when you stand before him on that great and terrible day, you will be alright.


God bless you

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CHRISTIAN

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CHRISTIAN

Calvin:
I can never loose Gods salvation.

Yeh! brother, but those that sin can not enter the kingdom.

Preach Christ to them.

Armenius
You will loose your salvation if you don't do your Part.

Yeh! brother, But God does not make mistakes in who He saves.

Preach Christ to them.

We will all come to the same Spirit if we only seek Christ.

Col 1:27-28 perfect in Christ and in each other because of Him that is in us.

In Christ: Phillip

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Phillip

Christinyou wrote:


"Calvin:
I can never loose Gods salvation.

Yeh! brother, but those that sin can not enter the kingdom.

Preach Christ to them.

Armenius
You will loose your salvation if you don't do your Part.

Yeh! brother, But God does not make mistakes in who He saves.

Preach Christ to them.

We will all come to the same Spirit if we only seek Christ."

AMEN!!

Greetings to all:

I must say that this discussion has generated some interesting and predictable responses, especially from our Calvinistic neighbors. Be that as it may, there is one issue that I would like to reinerate concerning a verse of scripture that the Calvinist believe lends support to their theological presuppositions, and that is Acts 13:48.

[i]"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."[/i]

As many as were ordained to eternal life hosoi (NT:3745) eesan (NT:2258) tetagmenoi (NT:5021) eis (NT:1519) zooeen (NT:2222) aioonion (NT:166). Periphrastic past perfect passive indicative of tassoo (NT:5021), a military term to place in orderly arrangement. The word "ordain" is not the best translation here. "Appointed," as Hackett shows, is better. The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God's side as opposed to the Jews (contrary to Calvinistic intrepretations) Luke does not tell us. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God's plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away. However, for a consistant Calvinism one must believe in an absolutum decretum to personal damnation.

This is a side of Calvinism not often mentioned by the proponents of Calvinism. They seem to roar like lions concerning the unconditional election of particular persons to salvation by the divine decree of God from eternity past, but are silent concerning what would be the logical other side of the coin, namely, the unconditional divine decree of God from eternity past concerning the unbelief and damnation of the rest of humanity. This is theistic, or rather, Calvinistic fatalism. [i]Que Sera, Sera[/i], [i]what ever will be will be[/i] by a mysterious divine decree. Well has Lawrence Vance observed:

"Although Calvinists go out of their way to distance themselves from fatalism, they are in essence teaching the same thing. When a philosopher believes "what is to be will be" it is called determinism. When a stoic believes "what is to be will be" it is called fate. When a Moslem believes "what is to be will be" it is called fatalism. But when a Calvinist believes "what is to be will be" it is called predestination."

Even when it comes to the fall of Adam into sin and all of the unfortunate consequences that followed; according to a consistant Calvinism we must believe that Adam was pushed by God into sin by divine decree. The fall of Lucifer that made him Satan can also be included in this if one is to maintain a consistant Calvinism. And if God by an unconditional divine decree elects particular persons to salvation with no consideration of repentance and faith in Christ (only some, [i]hidden purpose[/i] in God himself) then faith and repentance is a consequence of this divine choice already made in eternity past. In like manner God has unconditionally by divine decree reprobated the rest of humanity by the same [i]hidden purpose[/i] in himself with no consideration of the sin and unbelief in the lost. In fact according to a consistant Calvinism, the sin and unbelief in the sinner is only a consequence of a divine decree made from eternity past, that is, the source of sin and unbelief is to be found in God just as the source of faith and repentance is to be found in God. If God doesn't take into account anything in the ones he chooses to save, he doesn't take into account anything in those whom he has reprobated.

I have wondered; if Calvinism is the Gospel as they posit, then why isn't the five points of Calvinism ever clearly and distinctly evangelized to the lost. Why is it that they can't seem to be up-front and franked about Calvinism, and on the bases of Calvin's five points call men and women to faith in Christ? Why is it that all who become Calvinist only do so after they have been saved if Calvinism is the Gospel? There is no possible scriptural explanation for the Calvinist version of reprobation because there is no scriptural affirmation of the Calvinist version of reprobation. To see in Scripture sinners being "held accountable for not trusting in a Saviour in whom they were never [unconditionally] chosen," you must be able to see that which is[i]"hidden."[/i]Evidently that is just what a good pair of Calvinist-colored glasses will allow you to do.

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Jeff Marshalek

"I have wondered; if Calvinism is the Gospel as they posit, then why isn't the five points of Calvinism ever clearly and distinctly evangelized to the lost. Why is it that they can't seem to be up-front and franked about Calvinism, and on the bases of Calvin's five points call men and women to faith in Christ? Why is it that all who become Calvinist only do so after they have been saved if Calvinism is the Gospel? "---


--There was a time when this (Calvinism)was preached. There was a time in Germany and England in the 16th century..when the Doctrines of Grace stood against the Catholic Church..When the depravity of men, the Sovereignty of God, The finished Work of Christ for his bride, and the faith that men must have, were proclaimed. eventhough their very lives were at risk, and many persihed by the sword, they continued to preached the Doctines of Grace leading to the salvation of many.
There was a time in the 18 century in America during the great revivals when this "Calvinism" was preached, where men who were not ashamed to lift up the Just Judgements of God , and His Son's wonderful work for HIs Church.. Where men preached the Hard things of God unafraid of the public sentiment, but all they cared for was the Glory of God. which lead to salvation of thousands.
--Then in the mid 19th century Preachers begin to uplift the Sovereignty of man..and what man was capable of doing so the preaching became very man-centered..
---bring us to the 20th and 21century where the gospel is now about how God can help man become a better person,becuase after all man is not that bad, If only the preacher can somehow tantalize man's senses,so that he can make a decsion for Christ. This type of Christianity has left Europe and North America dead...

--- we need to come back to Christianity,
come back to The Justice and Righteousness of God.. The complete deadness of Mankind due to sin.. The absolute power of the Spirit to revive men.. The call on men to repent and Believe. The Finished work of Christ for His Church..--This type of Christianity(not that there is any other type) made a difference in a sinners heart---
-----My friend this used to be rule but today it is the exception .. People use to be saved and still are being saved under this kind of preaching for centuries and still today and before my eyes.
listen, The way you pray to God for the salvation of the Lost, my Friend, is closer to God's actual Character then your theology about Him.
andy

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andy

Hi again everyone.


Up until recently I have been attending an Orthodox Presbyterian Congregation. The members of the congregation were all very nice and I spent alot of time praying along with those that attended the weekly prayer meetings.



I remember how sometimes though, when we would pray for others to believe in Christ, that some would ask this, [i]if it was God's will[/i].






Many things are being preached today.

Some are out handing tracks to people that ask them if God loves them.


Others are out telling people that God is only saving the Jews.


The Bible says that those that are sent by God speak the words of God, because God does not give them the Spirit by measure.

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Christopher Joel Dandrow

Paul gives the only gospel that fulfills the Word of God in Col 1. Not Calvin or Armenius or any other Gospel.

Pauls final Gospel is "Christ in you the hope of Glory", A new Person in you, Christ Jesus our new life, "It is no longer I who live", Gal 2: 20, this Life I now live I live by the Faith of the Son of God. No other gospel given, but Pauls, "my Gospel, to fulfill the Word of God."

Which is Christ in you: Phillip

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Phillip

I have to agree with the brother that started this post. Calvinism is out right heresy. The very foundations of calvinism are destroyed in the first book of the Bible and the 3rd chapter in the scripture. Calvinism accuses God of tempting man with evil. All through the Old and New Testaments God is pleading with men to turn from sin and turn to Him. God is a holy, righteous, and personal God. He isn't a cosmic chess player who created people just to have fun and use us as pawns in His cosmic game. From my simple understanding of scripture God made man to subdue the earth(which included destroying the kingdom of Satan) but man gave the authority God gave him as a son of God over to the Satan. Jesus came to restore the order God had planned and took the "Keys" back from Satan when He laid His life down and defeated death by rising Himself from the grave. Now Jesus (The Last Adam) hands those "Keys" to His church. If we would only take them by true faith. According to the Bible we have been given great authority and responsibilty, which men for the most part have not taken seriously. Calvinisn blames God for everything. The church and (all of the human race for that matter) will never be what we are called to be until we stop blaming God for everything and take responsibilty. Remember in Genesis 3 who Adam tried to blame for his sin. "The woman whom YOU gave me." I don't refute the fact fact that there have been many moves of God that were brought through men that were Calvinists, but there have also been many moves of God through men who were directly apposed to Calvin's teachings. Results are not always a good indicator of correct doctrine. If results were a good indictor then we would expect that Jesus (The One who surely had correct doctrine) would have had the entire nation of isreal falling on their faces before God. The only measure of correct doctrine is the Bible and I mean the whole Bible not just a few select passages of scripture. I believe it was A.W. Tozer who said "Read the Bible in light of the Bible".

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Daniel Parks