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Lordoitagain
Member



Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 611
Monroe, LA - USA

 Re:

Quote:
There will never be an end to the world, the only end that you will see is when you die. Ephesians 3:21



uhhhh . . . maybe I'm missing something here . . . but Deepthinker, what world are you talking about never coming to an end?

I don't know how Eph 3:21 got translated as "world without end". The greek from which it was translated was simply:

αἰών αἰών

In the same King James Bible, the word αἰών is translated 72 times as "ever" and 37 times as "world" . . .

What about this verse:

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


where αἰών is translated as "world" . . . Jesus was saying that there would be an end.

How do you take these passages:

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Please think deeply about these passages!


_________________
Michael Strickland

 2009/7/4 13:07Profile
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Can you imagine what the Christian thought when Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini and other tyrants were taking power? Have you wondered what the Christian thought when Jews were being rounded up and being numbered with a tattoo on the fore arm? Have you thought how the Christian in that day would have thought when all countries of the world were engulfed in war?



Indeed, the history of the last two thousand years has not escaped me. To put to rest your thoughts, I haven't lived in a vacuum. I'm well aware of the unrest in the history of the world as if our time is totally unique. However our time does bear much to be unique. Now my friend of history I would parry with my own 'have you considered?' question. Have you thought of the universal nature of the troubles moving the world today, how they are alike and yet unlike those of yesterday. Israel is in existence again and all the world's issues are surrounding Jerusalem.

I'm sure they thought the world was coming to an end as the Roman empire collapsed also but that's not the point. Never in history has all the world's issues centered around Jerusalem. Even when the Roman emperor expelled all the Jews out of Jerusalem and renamed it Phillistia (Palestinia is the Latin name of the nation of the Philistines.) did the world's troubles revolve around that city. It had no more effect on the world's politics or peace in that time than my home town of Gumbo Mo. However, wars are ready to erupt and nations are aligning themselves against Israel across the globe just as it was prophesied.


_________________
SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2009/7/4 14:01Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Quote:
There will never be an end to the world, the only end that you will see is when you die. Ephesians 3:21



This sounds as if you are saying there will be no judgment. No cleansing fire. No resolution.

I can not believe it is as you imply.

Perhaps I am not as learned as you but something does not feel right about your interpretation. You paint the gloomiest picture of the future I could imagine. A planet raped and ravaged by the greed of Nations. Oceans filling with indestructible plastic filth. Oil fields drained dry. None of that was in the mix in the 30's troubles.

I do think what you said about how the Saints living in the 30's & 40's thought the World was about to end is a good point.

Right now, if what you say is true, the only way for the world to continue forever is for a massive die-off of the human population to take place and for everything to start all over. In your scenario how will the next group of humans learn of Jesus? Do you think he will have to appear every few thousand years?

I believe the World without end will be with Jesus in New Jerusalem. I also believe there will be Saints who go there without dying, when they rise up to meet Him in the air. How do you explain away all those Scriptures?

Anxiously awaiting your reply,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2009/7/4 16:25Profile









 Re:

Lordoitagain, how solid are you in what you believe to be the truth concerning endtime bible prophecy?



 2009/7/4 18:25









 Re:

Whitestone, God bless you brother. I wouldn't say that I know a lot, not really. But there are things that I do dare to step out and declare even it means that I stand alone, and I certainly don't like to be someone who would draw attention unto himself, not at all. When we read the bible there are some things that we have not looked at that should be looked at again without the voices of those that have interpreted for us.

Everyone proudly says, "I get my interpretation from the LORD only". A foolish statement to make because everyone that listens to other men rave on in their sermons will pick up something. Jesus even said, "becareful how you hear".

We all adopt something from someone and it's the Holy Spirits job (with our cooperation) to sort out the truth from error, because "when the Spirit of truth is come, He shall guide you into all truth". Thank God for that.

So I, like you, am on a quest to know the truth, even if it means that what I come to know will not be liked amongst other brethren. However, that doesn't mean that we should become insensitive regarding truth and drop a bomb in front of these little ones lest we become a stumbling block to them, God forbid. I like to think that I am communing with older Brother and Sisters who have been in the way for a while.

In seeking the truth, there is always that danger of leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ and cleaving to teachings that are certainly not in line with the word of God. All that we believe should be in line with all the word, not just one verse of scripture here or there, such doctrines are too shaky and anyone who bases their foundation on it will end up having their house fall. It must be built on Jesus Christ. It must start with Jesus Christ.

And thank God even interpreting bible prophecy it starts with Jesus Christ.

There were many things that were spoken of our LORD in prophetic utterances that never did get fulfilled according to our imagination. But because we know the scriptures they were fulfilled. What am I talking about?

It said that when Christ would come He would rebuild the waste place. Well, Jesus never took up a hammer and nail to rebuild anything, but we know that He did in Spirit. Because we know the Temple that the prophet was referring was the people of God. God's interest is in Spirit, not what we see with our natural understanding.

Jesus is referred to as a lamb, but his Mother certainly wasn't an Ewe. He is referred to as a lamb as being innocent and pure without spot or blemish. Now these idioms that are used to characterize a person or thing, shouldn't we also take note of that when dealing with what Jesus and the Apostle spoke?

So when Jesus said that the Sun will turn black and the moon shall not give her light. We should look deeper into exactly what He is referring to.

We shouldn't take things at face value.

Nicodemus took Jesus words as what any man would think, "can a man return to his mothers womb and be born again?". That is a natural response. But Jesus wasn't speaking about that at all. We need to think about what we have come to know as truth and turn the tables upside down and have a reformation.

I haven't avoided your questions, I have to get back to work.

 2009/7/4 19:03
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Hello Deepthinker,

I do not believe the Bible is tricky. It is not productive to argue when/how I believe Jesus will return, and I apologize for my tone. I do feel you have spent too much time thinking deeply and you have complicated something that is supposed to be simple. I do not even think a person needs to be able to read to be saved. It is not dependent upon intellect, only on Faith in Jesus.

You did do a lot of typing, for someone who had to get back to work. I can wait as long as it takes to have my questions answered. I do not want to put you on a spot but that was a very odd thing to post and not provide follow-up. There are many here who are new to the Faith. Not everyone who reads the threads posts.

Kind regards,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2009/7/4 22:06Profile









 Re:

God Bless you brother.

Quote:
I do feel you have spent too much time thinking deeply and you have complicated something that is supposed to be simple.

Actually I work in a Care Facility and some of my time is just sitting. That is one thing that I don't do a lot of and that is thinking to deeply. The Holy Spirit who is my teacher quickens the word of God to me and shows me by His word the simplicity of His word. When I believed the way you believed my friend many years ago, it was complicated and there was a lot of unanswered questions. That is why we have several camps to which people settle themselves into, Pre Mid and Post Tribulation rapture teachings. What Jesus has taught me is much more simpler, the confusion has lifted concerning dispensationalism and the scriptures all fall into place. Every where I read now, all I see is Jesus and that He kept all the promises and fulfilled them to a tee. The way I believed before kept me running around in circles because there was no end to the confusion. But there is money to be made in hype, just ask Jack Van Impe.

 2009/7/5 0:20
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Good Morning Deepthinker,

When I see words like 'dispensationalism' my minds just skips the whole thread. I do not worry about questionable points that do not produce good fruit. My husband and I worship daily. Together we listen to audio readings of the KJV and follow along with the written word confirming the text. (I feel it is doubly implanted in my heart to hear and read it at the same time.

Eccles. 12:13-14
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Mark 5:36 . . . . Be not afraid, only believe

Luke 8:50 . . . .Fear not: believe only. . .

Not every believer has been given the benefit of a higher education (some have none) but God writes His laws in the heart of every believer and I believe they are the same laws for each Saint. It is natural man that puts the shackles on new converts. Here is the answer for that. Titus 3:9: But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

We do not worry ourselves if there will be a rapture, or not. What does that matter? We follow Jesus, if it is His will that we suffer we trust He will allow us to do it with grace.

It is only on the part where you say this filthy world will continue forever where I balk. :-)

Kindest regards,
white stone


_________________
Janice

 2009/7/5 11:22Profile









 Re: Rapture? Resurrection?


To Deepthinker:

What does the Word of God say about the rapture? What does the Word of God say about a resurrection from the dead?

Mystery, n. [L. mysterium, Gr. A secret. This word in Greek is rendered also murium latibulum; but probably both senses are from that of hiding or shutting; Greek, to shut or conceal.]
1. A profound secret; something wholly unknown or something kept cautiously concealed, and therefore exciting curiosity or wonder; such as the mystery of the Man in the Iron Mask in France,

2. IN RELIGION, ANY THING IN THE CHARACTER OR ATTRIBUTES OF GOD, OR IN THE ECONOMY OF DIVINE PROVIDENCE, WHICH IS NOT REVEALED TO MAN.
3. That which is beyond human comprehension until explained. In this sense, mystery often conveys the idea of something awfully sublime or important; something that excites wonder.
Great is the mystery of Godliness. 1 Timothy iii
Having made know to us the mystery of His will. Eph. I

We speak the wisdom of God in a mystery. 1 Cor 2

4. An enigma; any thing artfully difficult

5. A kind of ancient dramatic representation

6. A trade; a calling; any mechanical occupation which supposes skill or knowledge peculiar to those who carry it on, and therefore secret to others.

[The word in the latter sense has been supposed to have a different origin from the foregoing, viz. Fr. Metier, Norm. mestier, business, trade, occupation, as if from Norm. metie, master. But this is probably incorrect.]


A mystery is something that has been concealed. In this case Paul is REVEALING a mystery that is not found in the Old Testament. Hence, it is NEW DOCTRINE.


The Rapture versus the 2nd Coming of Christ

"That day" referred to in 2 Thes 2:3 is not the rapture. "That day" is referring to the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, at the end of the 7 year Tribulation. The term “falling away” is referring to apostacy (Strongs Concordance #646 = Apostasia)

Paul was taught face to face by Jesus Christ for 3 years—first in Arabia, and then in Damascas (Gal 1:12-18). Paul taught the revelation knowledge given to him by Jesus Christ of the coming rapture of the Church, before the beginning of the Tribulation. This Doctrine was not taught by the other Disciples, only Paul.

In 1 Thes 4:13-17 Paul starts off by telling them that he does not want them to be ignorant of the coming rapture of the Church (because they were ignorant of this fact!)

(1 Thes 4:13-17)
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul preached a pre-tribulation position. The whole 2nd Thessalonians letter only makes sense if Paul had taught them a pre-trib Rapture in 1st Thessalonians. Think about it. They were horrified at being told that the Day of the Lord had come. Why? If they were post trib they would have concluded that the 2nd Coming was only seven years away. But if they were pre-trib such news would mean that they had missed the Rapture, and that would mean that they weren’t saved. Now that would be cause for the kind of alarm their letter to Paul conveyed.

(2 Thes. 2:2) Paul explained that the Day of the Lord (Christ’s second coming, at the end of the tribulation) couldn’t come until three things take place. The falling away, or apostasy, the removal of the restraining power holding the anti-Christ back (the Church), and finally the anti-Christ’s official introduction.

The first of these three is underway today with the Emergent Church movement and the splitting up of the Evangelical Church over environmental and political issues. The second is the soon coming Rapture of the Church, and the third is the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus also spoke of in Matt. 24:15. (When Anti-Christ walks into the rebuilt Jewish temple and demands worship as God, 3 ½ years into the Tribulation)

Take heart, it all makes sense. Paul has told us, because he told the Thessallonians in the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 that the rapture comes first. In 2 Thes 2:2 Paul explains that the Day of the Lord (Christ’s second coming, at the end of the tribulation) couldn’t come until three things take place. The falling away, or apostasy, the removal of the restraining power holding the anti-Christ back (the Chruch, filled with the Holy Spirit), and finally the anti-Christ’s official introduction to the World.

[b][color=990000]Also, Christ has promised us (in the past tense) through the words of Paul, that by our belief in Him have already escaped the wrath to come!

1 Thes 1:1
10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

DeepThinker wrote:
God Bless you brother.
Quote:
I do feel you have spent too much time thinking deeply and you have complicated something that is supposed to be simple.

Actually I work in a Care Facility and some of my time is just sitting. That is one thing that I don't do a lot of and that is thinking to deeply. The Holy Spirit who is my teacher quickens the word of God to me and shows me by His word the simplicity of His word. When I believed the way you believed my friend many years ago, it was complicated and there was a lot of unanswered questions. That is why we have several camps to which people settle themselves into, Pre Mid and Post Tribulation rapture teachings. What Jesus has taught me is much more simpler, the confusion has lifted concerning dispensationalism and the scriptures all fall into place. Every where I read now, all I see is Jesus and that He kept all the promises and fulfilled them to a tee. The way I believed before kept me running around in circles because there was no end to the confusion. But there is money to be made in hype, just ask Jack Van Impe.

 2009/7/5 12:12









 Re:

I loved that last post, great attitude to have.

Quote:
Not every believer has been given the benefit of a higher education (some have none)

I am of the "some have none" category. I live a simple life. The last thing that I wanted to know was bible prophecy. Believe you me, my intent is to know Jesus Christ and Him crucified, everything else didn't matter. I avoided reading the book of Revelation, I just didn't want to get messed up in that book. About ten years ago I was praying & fasting and seeking His face to know Him in a greater measure when the Holy Spirit made me undone of all that I have come to know as truth regarding bible prophecy. My position was Post Tribulation Rapture. And God in the twinkling of an eye just nullified that whole teaching and brought it down as nothing and the scriptures that I used to substantiate the facts became like water. I was like a man who was undone, someone whom the LORD stripped of His clothes and left naked.

For several months I mourned over my error, I could not read the bible because everywhere it spoke of what the LORD had already done and I couldn't face that, I had put all of these things in our future, of what I have come to read and know. After a very long time I picked up the bible once again and little by little began to read it, and I was seeing other things that literally boggled my mind, and I kept wondering how I was duped when I thought my doctrine was foolproof. Not just bible prophecy, but in other areas as well. I began to see Jesus lifted up where He rules and reigns over the nations with a rod of iron today, that the Kingdom of God had come already, that when we die we go and meet the LORD in the air, so shall we ever be with Him.

I have read the bible several times in my lifetime but now it has become a brand new book. Each time I read it there is something the LORD wants to quicken in me. Amen!

Lordoitagain asked me a question regarding the "elements burning up with fervent heat". I have an answer for him/her, but I have a feeling that it will only fall on deaf ears. There is an answer, but not the answer he is looking for. There has to be an introduction to it, you can't just drop a bomb and expect things to come together in few words.
Quote:
We do not worry ourselves if there will be a rapture, or not. What does that matter? We follow Jesus, if it is His will that we suffer we trust He will allow us to do it with grace.

A resounding AMEN and a good attitude to have.

 2009/7/5 12:41





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