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Mattie
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Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 1 Corinthians 14:26 Whenever you come together...

1 Corinthians 14:26, 31 'How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification...For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and be encouraged.'

One can only look at what New Testament gatherings were like as seen in the epistles and see a sharp contrast from what exists today.

In the 1st century, Paul encouraged believers to come together with a readiness to participate rather than be a passive spectator.

As the Spirit of God moved upon any member of the body of Christ, all were welcome to declare Jesus Christ through song, through a revelation, through a teaching, or through a tongue.

He even goes on to say that 'you can all prophesy (proclaim Christ) one by one' (Keep in mind that Paul is writing this letter not to a select group of leaders, but to the entire 'church of Corinth') [1 Cor 1:2]

Would you agree/disagree that our Western pulpit, one-man speaking per week hinders this mutual participation as clearly revealed in the epistles? Why do we not see this anymore?

(1 Cor 14 is not the only place where all were welcome to participate. Ephesians 5:18-21 Paul encourages the believers in Ephesus to all sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, submitting to 'one another' out of fear of Christ. Also in Hebrews 10:24-25 when encouraged to not forsake the assembling together, the writer is not speaking of coming to a building to hear a speaker every week. It is clear from v.24 it was to encourage one another towards love and good works)

Your thoughts.....

 2009/6/22 13:49Profile
Know-Him
Member



Joined: 2009/1/7
Posts: 76


 Re: 1 Corinthians 14:26 Whenever you come together...

Lots of good thoughts. Thank you.
I think one of the issues is that we have moved away from the priesthood of all believers. Instead of being dependent on the Holy Spirit people depend on their favourite "Guru / Holy Man" 1 John 2:27
But then if we all could do ministry why would we pay a specially trained expert to do it, or is it easier to part with some money than trust God to empower us all to do it? :-(
Do people want to be spectators or participants???
Keep on asking questions Mattie.

 2009/6/22 14:09Profile
Mattie
Member



Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 Re:

Some might see such 'gatherings' as optional, or only something that was meant to take place in the 1st century. But this is God's ordained purpose for the body of Jesus Christ. The church is the fullness of Jesus Christ, the very expression of His Person. He is revealed through a many-membered body, not just a mouth.

God is faithful to move and work in every setting, including the pulpit/pew setting. However, there is no question that it hinders the every member functioning church from blossoming.

 2009/6/22 14:45Profile
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re: 1 Corinthians 14:26 Whenever you come together...

Hi Mattie,

This is a great question and the fulfillment of this has been on my heart for a very long time. The majority of churches have one man leading (unbiblical) but if this one man leading would just encourage the participation of the believers, it would be great. I believe the minister may be afraid of what might happen, and he might lose control. I have been a member of a church in your country, in North Vancouver, where the pastor encouraged this, especially after prayer which was held every night of the week if you wanted to come! This man was very open to the Spirit working amongst the believers and encouraged it. He was truly interested in the spiritual condition of the believers he pastored. I long for this type of gathering and this type of leader.


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Linda

 2009/6/22 17:34Profile
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re: 1 Corinthians 14:26 Whenever you come together...

I believe it is intended as when you are able to assemble, I believe this meaning of "not forsaking the assembly" is more promoted by ignorance than biblical. "Not forsaking" is meaning to assemble if you are able, not to fully abandon the concept of gathering. I hear this statement regularly; "Did you find a church" or "did you go to church this sunday?" You so no to either question. Whats the next comment out of there mouth..."don't forsake the assembly with others." Please! This is tradition and a sacrament for many believers.

lets say we do gather at "church" on Sunday morning...what is generally the process.
1. Singing
2. Shake hands with your neighbor.
3. More singing.
4. Tithing time.
5. announcements.
5a. maybe a drama or skit. but not always
6. pastors sermon.
7. Invitation time.
8. Closing prayer
9. Sunday School.
10. another sermon
11. lunch
12. Home.

Now does that sound like Hebrews 10:24-25?

:-)

 2009/6/22 20:39Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Dear Mattie,

Thank you for your post. It is so encouraging.

Kind regards,
white stone


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Janice

 2009/6/22 22:44Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re: Being assembled together

"Not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, as the manner of some is..." (Heb. 10.25).

I wonder, who are the "some" who forsake the assembling of themselves together?

A brother once gave the illustration of what being truly asssembled is. He said when he was a boy he built model cars and planes. The box would show a completed picture of the intended model, underneath which would be the instructions, "assembly required."

So just because you are sitting in a pew week after week doesn't mean you are assembled.

Our Lord would gather us in such a way that, His Spirit ruling in our midst so that each part functions vitally as He intended, we become effectively joined together and built up together... till we are "assembled," put together, and come to resemble "the picture (of Himself) on the box."

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/6/22 22:44Profile









 Re: 1 Corinthians 14:26 Whenever you come together...



Dear Mattie:

The example that we should be focused on is the Protestant Church of the Reformation, not the believing Church at the very beginning, before the canon was closed.

1 Cor 14:31 tells us:
31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

However, at the end of the Bible, at the last chapter, in the last four verses of the last chapter, in the Book of Revelation, Jesus Christ Himself warns us:

Revelation 22:18-21

[b][color=990000]18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.[/color][/b]:

[color=990000]This book
The word “book” here is the Greek biblion (in 22:19 it is biblos). This, of course, is where the “Bible” got it’s name. Here John warns, first of all, against adding to the prophecies given in the Book of Revelation. In a broader sense, however, he would warn against adding to the Bible itself, for he was the last of the apostles,[u] and Jesus had in effect told His apostles that He would send the Holy Spirit to bring all things to their remembrance, to guide them into all truth, and to reveal to them things to come (John 14:26; 15:26). Also, the Apostle Paul had written that the church would be “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,” and that the truths of the New Testament would be “revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit”[/u] (Ephesians 2:20; 3:5).

That “foundation” of divine revelation has been laid in the apostolic era and thus need not be laid again. Furthermore, Paul had said that the gift of prophecy would cease once “that which is perfect [or complete] is come” (1 Cor 13:8, 10). There can be little doubt, therefore, that John’s warning in this vitally important verse at the end of the Bible applies to any new revelation. Both Christ and the apostles repeatedly warned against false prophets, and here is the criteria by which to recognize them.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.[/color]

[b]2nd Timothy gives us more guidance in regards to what believers are to be focused on. It has nothing to do with prophecy, as we have heard the last of it from Jesus Christ in the Book of Revelation. Over the years I have attended many Churches where open prophecy is allowed. I have never seen the Church discipline those “prophets” who provided false prophecy.

What is the discipline? Deuteronomy 13:1-5 lets us know how God feels about false prophets.

1. If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and 2. And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3. Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4. Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5.[b] And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.[/b]

The problem with prophecy at this time in History is that God's canon is closed, and Jesus Christ is the one that closed it. Also, another problem is that the Christian believer has the Holy Spirit WITH measure, while Jesus Christ had the Holy Spirit WITHOUT measure. So, to clarify, the Christian today has the Holy Spirit within his heart. It is the down payment that is given to all believers. However, since we have the Spirit with measure, our flesh, as well as Satan still has access to our thoughts and our hearts. We can never be sure if we are receiving a “sure word” from any self proclaimed “prophet”. Also, it is not necessary. We have all that we need- The Bible that gives us His Story (History), as well as the end of the Story, Prophecy found in Revelation and throughout the Bible.

[color=990000]Our cry today, at the end of the end times, as the great Tribulation is on the horizon, should be "Sola Scriptura" [/color]

Sincerely,

Walter


Quote:

Mattie wrote:
1 Corinthians 14:26, 31 'How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification...For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and be encouraged.'

One can only look at what New Testament gatherings were like as seen in the epistles and see a sharp contrast from what exists today.

In the 1st century, Paul encouraged believers to come together with a readiness to participate rather than be a passive spectator.

As the Spirit of God moved upon any member of the body of Christ, all were welcome to declare Jesus Christ through song, through a revelation, through a teaching, or through a tongue.

He even goes on to say that 'you can all prophesy (proclaim Christ) one by one' (Keep in mind that Paul is writing this letter not to a select group of leaders, but to the entire 'church of Corinth') [1 Cor 1:2]

Would you agree/disagree that our Western pulpit, one-man speaking per week hinders this mutual participation as clearly revealed in the epistles? Why do we not see this anymore?

(1 Cor 14 is not the only place where all were welcome to participate. Ephesians 5:18-21 Paul encourages the believers in Ephesus to all sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, submitting to 'one another' out of fear of Christ. Also in Hebrews 10:24-25 when encouraged to not forsake the assembling together, the writer is not speaking of coming to a building to hear a speaker every week. It is clear from v.24 it was to encourage one another towards love and good works)

Your thoughts.....

 2009/6/22 23:53
Mattie
Member



Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 Re:

Waltern,

You bring up a great topic of discussion - that of the canon.

In regards to your thoughts that 'when the perfect has come' is referring to the canon, I would have to differ with you in that I believe it is referring to the 2nd coming. The context appears to be saying so because of Paul's mention that 'we know in part and prophecy in part, but when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part will be done away with'. It then says 'Now we see in a mirror dimly, but THEN FACE TO FACE.' Do we now (having the canon), see 'face to face' rather than in a mirror dimly? The context seems to be speaking of our limits hear on the earth - prophesying in part, seeing in a mirror dimly. But when Christ returns, face to face, knowing as we are known.

The passages you gave don't seem to indicate to me that when the canon comes, we no longer need the gifts.

I agree that the canon is closed, and the Scriptures carry inspiration and authority. However, I do believe the gifts are necessary for the building up of the body, and they will bear witness to the Truth of Scripture.

I would ask you these questions...
*What was the point of the gifts in the first century (not for the apostles only, but for the church - 1 Cor 12-14)
*Where else in Scripture would you say there is no longer a necessity for the gifts when the canon has come?

 2009/6/23 9:22Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

Mattie wrote:
Waltern,
The passages you gave don't seem to indicate to me that when the canon comes, we no longer need the gifts.

I agree that the canon is closed, and the Scriptures carry inspiration and authority. However, I do believe the gifts are necessary for the building up of the body, and they will bear witness to the Truth of Scripture.



I concur with Mattie on this. It's in the canon of scripture that the verse Mattie quoted (1 Cor. 14.26) is written. It's also in the canon that "ye may all prophesy" (1 Cor. 14.31).

And it's in the canon of scripture that Christ, after he ascended, (note that, AFTER he ascended) ...gave gifts unto men: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints... (Eph. 4.11,12). And he goes on to say these will be with us "TILL we all come... unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Eph. 4.13).

We need these gifts functioning in our midst, and that corporately, with each member contributing that vital portion God has put in them... if we are going to see the fruit He is looking for from the churches.

...The canon is closed, but all things written in the canon are certainly not yet fulfilled. The Spirit of the Lord, which He sent forth into the earth after He ascended, has not yet finished the work He gave Him to do (in perfecting the church).

...And it's in the canon of Scripture that we are given the beautiful expression of how the early church gathered. We know we can't reproduce that just by imitating it, but we can seek the same Lord the Spirit to make real in our midst what He made real in their midst.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/6/23 10:55Profile





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