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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A question about repentance and grace

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Logic,

Jesus knew that Peter would sin, and He told Peter such would happen. It was a decreed event, just like the crucifixion.

Peter's denial was [b]not[/b] a decreed event like the crucifixion.

A decree is a proclaimed eternal purpose of God, by which events are supposed to happen while foreknowleged is a statement of prediction.

The crucifixion was suposed to happen, but the sin involved wasn't, for sin is never supposed to be.

Quote:
For Peter to have not sinned would have made Christ a false prophet, which is impossible, therefore, it was impossible for Peter to not sin in this case.

No, it wouldn't have made Jesus a false prophet. If Peter would not had denied Jesus, then Jesus would not have told Peter so.

As I've said, the action causes the foreknowlege.

Your saying that the foreknowledge causes the action.

Quote:
I'm not making Jesus responsible for Peters sin, I'm simply saying the sin was clearly unavoidable, as evidenced by Christ saying it would happen.

Just because God has foreknowledge does not make sin unavoidable.
The foreknowledge is because of the free choice (with an alternative to do otherwise).
The choice is NOT because of the foreknowlege of it.

Jesus basicaly said that Peter will freely choose to deny Him without any inevitability of the fact.
Peter always had the alternative to do otherwise, he always had the option to not deny Jesus.
However, Jesus knew Peter so very well, that HE could make a prediction of what Peter will freely choose to do.

If Peter would not have denied Jesus, Jesus wouyld not have told Peter so.

Quote:
Secondly, after Jesus told Peter what would happen, could Peter freely have chosen to do otherwise, thus proving Christ wrong?

You are truely making Jesus responsible for Peters sin.
Your saying that Jesus' foreknowlege made Peter to deny Him.
In fact, it is the other way around, Peter's denial made Jesus' foreknowlege.

According to how your making it, Peter could have said to Jesus, "thanks alot Jesus, now I [b]have to sin[/b], just because you said that I will."
Jesus should have kept quiet so Peter didn't have to sin.

Anyway, you're missing the whole point of the issue in the story.
It isn't caliming the inevitability of sin, but Peter's reliance on the flesh.

 2009/6/25 17:44Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Secondly, after Jesus told Peter what would happen, could Peter freely have chosen to do otherwise, thus proving Christ wrong?

You are truely making Jesus responsible for Peters sin. Your saying that Jesus' foreknowlege made Peter to deny Him. In fact, it is the other way around, Peter's denial made Jesus' foreknowlege. According to how your making it, Peter could have said to Jesus, "thanks alot Jesus, now I have to sin, just because you said that I will." Jesus should have kept quiet so Peter didn't have to sin. Anyway, you're missing the whole point of the issue in the story. It isn't caliming the inevitability of sin, but Peter's reliance on the flesh.



Logic,

It was just a simple "yes"/"no" question, Peter either could have or couldn't have, there isn't much in between. So, here is the question again:

Secondly, after Jesus told Peter what would happen, could Peter freely have chosen to do otherwise, thus proving Christ wrong?


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/6/25 18:06Profile









 Re:

Quote...

"it would have been impossible for Peter to avoid this sin, because to do so would have made Christ's statement false.'

Is it possible brother that you are looking at bthis backwards and perhaps swalloing a camel. The foreknowledge of God does not make Him responsible for the lives of Humanity. A man will give an account for his actions. He will not say "I played the part you called me to play, sorry for the part where you said that I would sin."

Tozer said it best. God's soveriegn will is like a liner sailing from New York to Liverpool. God has set the course and the time of arrival, nothing can change that, there is a beginning and an end, but the people are free to move about the ship even as that ship passes through waters that God has charted...........Frank

 2009/6/25 18:20
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Hello sscott, thank you for your questions. I had anticipated some confusion.

The whole issue of the salvation is the issue of righteousness. In the sight of God, a person is either righteous or unrighteous; there is no middle ground. Either you are a lawkeeper or a lawbreaker. Either you are a sinner or you aren't. Do we really believe what the Bible says, that God justifies the ungodly and reckons them righteous in Christ by faith? Do we really believe the gospel, that in Christ Jesus we are dead to sin and free from all condemnation? The reason for this is because Christians have become "dead to the law" through the body of Christ and are no longer subject, or under, the law's jurisdiction. Where there is no law, there is no ability to break a law, and therefore there is no ability to sin. A Christian may boldly say, "I cannot sin. I am dead to the law."

I am talking about the accounting books of God. I am talking about the legal records. A Christian knows beyond a doubt that he is a sinner who sins, but in the record books of God he is not counted as a sinner or as having ever sinned. Glory to God! Thus it may be truly said: "I am a sinner, and yet I am not a sinner." "I sinned, and yet I did not sin." It is both true. Christians certainly commit many sins, but to the law they are dead and are guilty of nothing. Sins are sins, but the question is: is it laid to my charge?

John wrote an interesting passage at the end of 1 John that refers to what I am talking about here, and we need this passage to understand the rest of the book. He wrote:

[i]"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."[/i] (1 John 5:16-18)

Notice how there is definite connection with verse 18 and our discussion on chapter 3. John says plainly, "all unrighteousness is sin" and to that we give a hearty amen. Sins that even Christians commit are wrong. But he makes a distinction between sins that are unto death and sins that are not unto death. This is what I am speaking about above. We know that the wages of sin is death, and that the soul that sins shall die, according to the law. Having died to the law, Christians cannot sin a sin unto death. [i]"There is therefore [b]now[/b] no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."[/i] (Romans 8:1) It cannot be done! Christians certainly may commit sins not unto death, which explains those verses you were quoting regarding sin. A Christian sins, recognizes it was wickedness, and thanks God that He does not impute his sins against him. [i]"Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord does not impute sin."[/i] (Romans 4:8) We may freely confess that we are not without sin (1 John 1:8), and at the same time that we are (1 John 3:5). IT IS A FOOLISH MYSTERY THE WORLD CANNOT UNDERSTAND WITHOUT THE SPIRIT! HOW CAN GOD JUSTIFY THE UNGODLY? IMPOSSIBLE! OUR REPLY: CHRIST CRUCIFIED! CHRIST CRUCIFIED! CHRIST, THE WISDOM AND GOD AND THE POWER OF GOD!

I realize that my response to you could probably be better written, but try to meditate on these things and capture what I am saying. The issue is righteousness - perfect righteousness which God alone has wrought in Christ. The law must be upheld. He will accept nothing less than the spotless righteousness of Jesus Christ. The one question we must ask ourselves is: Am I righteous before God, or not? I trust that we know that we are not in and of ourselves, and that our only salvation is found in Christ alone.

For more reading:

[url=http://www.timothyministry.com/2009/04/what-is-gospel.html]What is the Gospel?[/url]
[url=http://www.timothyministry.com/2009/03/law-of-god.html]The Law of God[/url]
[url=http://www.timothyministry.com/2008/08/cheap-grace.html]Cheap Grace[/url]
[url=http://www.timothyministry.com/2008/10/is-faith-work.html]Is Faith a Work?[/url]
[url=http://www.timothyministry.com/2008/01/missing-mark-part-1.html]Missing the Mark[/url]
[url=http://www.timothyministry.com/2007/12/evidence-that-law-includes-moral-law.html]Evidence that 'the Law' Includes the Moral Law[/url]

Love in Christ,
-Eli

PS. A great source of misunderstanding comes from not understanding what the law is. People have a very narrow view of the law, as if it only applies to Jewish ceremonial commands that have long been eclipsed by a higher NT law. This is a tremendous error. Jesus said that all the law could be summarized in two Old Testament commands: 1) Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself. He said that no commands are higher than these, and these belong to the law. The apostles also affirmed this: [i]"For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."[/i] (Romans 13:9-10) Therefore we must see that the law refers primarily to that which is moral, and nothing can be added to it. Jesus Christ is the purest example of what it is to keep the law. Any sin is a violation of the law, and Jesus never sinned. The Gospel teaches us that we are not justified by keeping the law, but by faith in the blood of Christ. That means we are righteous before God NOT by loving God, or our neighbor, but by the gift of grace to ungodly sinners!


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2009/6/25 18:39Profile
DesiJr
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Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113


 Re: A question about repentance and grace

May God bless you Paul.

It is by God's grace alone that we have hope to be redeemed to live a life of glory toward the Father. It's through Christ that this grace is revealed.

The sin that John speaks of in 1John is the sin of resisting Christian love. If we act maliciously against the salvation of our brothers we are practicing sin and therefor there is no more sacrifice for us. We have trampled the working of grace that has been extened to us.

The Spirit of God is the most dillegent agent working on the Earth on behalf of God. His Spirit teaches and draws you to submit to the authority of the Godhead.

As he speaks to the condition of our spiritual poverty and the riches that His Kingdom contains to buy us back for the Father's glory we have a choice to make. Resist or submit to the truth that He reveals.

If we submit we are changed by the Spirit to new creatures who begin a process of be made like Christ (sanctification) and a revelation of the power source of the Kingdom of God, Christ's love. For God is Love. This love is what brings understanding to 1 John in context. Because He first loved us with this True Love, we are now able to truly love.

If we love Christ, His Kingdom and His church and we long to see Him glorified by winning souls to offer Him the reward of His sacrifice, we have a love that is foreign to this world.

It's love that surpasses offense, condemnation and self-righteousness.

Submit yourself consistently to the this Love, which is Christ Himself, and you will be practicing righteousness and abiding in Christ being led by the Spirit, prepared for the coming of our Savior Jesus Christ. Our only fear should be the fear of resisting the Spirit and becoming useless to God and therefor useless to the Kingdom and shaming the great grace that was extened to us for His glory.

God Bless

 2009/6/25 19:18Profile









 Re:

So how does 1 John 1:9 apply to the believer? Or would you say it does not apply to the believer since they are already righteous in God's eyes?



Also I think you are stretching the understanding of the verses you posted on 1 John 5"

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:16-18)"

It does not say the believer does not sin "in God's eyes" as you put it. It says the one born of God sinneth not - [b]he keepeth HIMSELF[/b](obviously by the power of God because God's seed abides in him). It has nothing to do with the way the man is seen in God's eyes.

 2009/6/25 19:56
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell wrote:

It was just a simple "yes"/"no" question,

It is not a"just a simple yes/no question".
The answer will always need explaining.

Quote:
...after Jesus told Peter what would happen, could Peter freely have chosen to do otherwise, thus proving Christ wrong?


Yes, but that would not prove Jesus wrong, because, Jesus would not have told him so.

Peter could always have not denied Jesus, nothing was stopping him.

 2009/6/25 20:10Profile









 Re:

So Eli,

You said: "A Christian sins, recognizes it was wickedness, and thanks God that He does not impute his sins against him."

So there is no really saving a soul from death as James says:

James 5:19 says "19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

There's no death to turn him from since his sins are not imputed. So instead of turning the man from the error of his ways we should tell him "thank God your sins are not imputed"? Because in reality it doesn't matter.



 2009/6/25 20:11
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

sscott,

It is the Bible that teaches us that God does not impute sin against His saints, not me.

I understand James to be talking about someone who departs from the truth - the gospel, such as the Galatians. Not someone who sins.

The knowledge that God has forgiven us of all our sins through Christ and does not condemn us any longer is the greatest motivation to love and serve God. Actually, it is not only the motivation, it is the only real way to love and serve God.

[i]"In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another... And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us."[/i] (1 John 4:9-11, 16-19)

[i]"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."[/i] (Galatians 2:19-20)

[i]"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."[/i] (Philippians 3:3)

[i]"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God... But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."[/i] (Romans 7:4,6)

Etc.


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2009/6/25 21:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:
It is the Bible that teaches us that God does not impute sin against His saints, not me.



Brother I didn't say I disagree. I asked you how does this work with 1 John 1:9?

Quote:
I understand James to be talking about someone who departs from the truth - the gospel, such as the Galatians. Not someone who sins.



Not sure what you mean here. To depart from the faith is to sin.

You posted scriptures again about being dead to the law but the scriptures say other things are sin besides just failure to keep the law (while under the law). I posted that in my original post..could you address those as well?

Thanks.

Sean

 2009/6/26 0:01





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