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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A question about repentance and grace

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 Re:

paulmcg1,

If you think that it is possible you have never been saved, the best and safest thing to do is to assume that you haven't ever been saved, and then repent of your sins and believe the Gospel as if you had never done that before. Repent and believe as if it is the first time.

God wants to save you. Jesus Christ died for you. You can be sure of this. You don't have to worry and wonder, "Does God even want to save me?" or "Has Jesus really died for me". The answer is YES! God wants to save everyone, Jesus Christ died for the whole world. But God is waiting upon you to repent of your sins and believe the Gospel. Do not wait for God to do for you what you must do for yourself. Don't expect God to do what He expects you to do! You must decide to surrender everything and trust entirely in Christ.

God PROMISES that if the wicked forsake their way, and if you believe the Gospel, He will pardon you by His grace and mercy. Jesus made forgiveness possible, now you must repent and believe to receive it.

 2009/6/25 10:57
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Alive-to-God wrote:
Quote:
Logic said
Don't confuse human weakness/frailty with sin;
if you can't help it, it is not a sin.

This statement is at variance with much of New Testament scripture, which makes clear that victory over sin is mandatory as a testimony of our relationship with Jesus, which you very well describe.

And if our bodies have been deadened by the experiences of sin, or sins against us, there is hope for our restoration in this verse: Rom 8:11.

Yes, the flesh is weak, but it is not - as you already said - uncontrollable. This is clear from 2 Cor 10:3 - 6. Victory over sin is a matter of applying the death of Jesus Christ to ourselves - Paul the apostle calls it 'reckon yourselves dead' (to sin), and to the world. Gal 2:20. Often a battle in the mind, and with pride, and more often with bondage and demons, precedes our capitulation to God's provision in this area of our living.

I am sure you misunderstand me.
I am all for victory over sin!

What I menat is that when something appears to be sin but we, in now way, could have avoided it because of our human weakness/frailty, then it can not be sin; for sin is ALWAYS avoidable.

The thing which may appear as sin but are not might be mistakes, forgeting, thoughts which are not your own, anoyances...etc...

[b]Example:[/b] My wife sometimes becomes anoyed with customers at work. She has thoughts which come to her mind that are rude. However, she holds her peace and remains polite, freindly, cutious, & professional.
She comes home and tells me about her anoyances and her thoughts, and I tell her that she did not sin because she had self control over those appearances of sin.

It is human weakness/frailty that makes us anoyed at certain people (on eather part, them or us) however, the fact that it is not sin is that we can not help it & we control ourselves and do not give in to the anoyances.

Quote:
Lastly, 'bondage' has a spiritual component. It's not merely that the flesh is weak. True, the Holy Spirit is stronger than any demon, but, often a demon's mindset has become our own, at a time when we didn't recognise certain throughts as temptation, or sinful.

I don't know where demons come into the picture, however I do know that some thoughts are not my own.

Just as Jesus had thoughts of turning stones into bread. He did not sin when He thought about doing it, because He was very hungery and those certain stones do actualy look like loaves of bread.
The devil took advantage of that situation and suggested something to HIM that would havebeen sin if HE did give in.

The thoughts of temptaion are not sin, but giving into the thoughts, dwelling on them, and entertaining them become sin.
Just as thoughts of annoyances and rudeness...etc...

Quote:
Some evil spirits will go on their own, if we receive more and more of the life of Christ into conscious daily living, but others need to be sent away by the command of one who has spiritual authority to use the name of Jesus effectively, before the Holy Spirit can [u]fill[/u] and heal that part of the person's life, such that the temptation loses its power, and the sin ceases almost effortlessly (but not without our conscious co-operation with God in the matter).

One shouldn't be blaiming evil spirits or making them the cause of anything and casting away evil spirits; [b]Submit to God which is resisting them, and they will flee[/b] (James 4:7).

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit can "fill and heal that part of the person's life" know matter what, you don't have to do anything before He can do anything with this kind of matter.

Quote:
If every natural effort has been made to control a certain behaviour, there is [u]no[/u] shame in asking a more mature Christian (an elder or experieinced minister), for appropriate prayer to be released from bondage.

I whole heartedly agree.

Quote:
This should not be an occasion which leads to greater bondage. If it does, then it may indicate the person who prayed lacks spiritual authority, despite having a 'position' in the church.

This sounds like "kindom Now", or maybe kenneth Copeland junk.

If you're a child of God, you have the authority of Christ, no matter what.
[b]Eph 1:3[/b] [color=990000]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:[/color]
[b]2Peter 1:3[/b] [color=990000]According as his divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that has called us to glory and virtue:[/color]

Quote:
Don't let just anyone lay hands on your head either, as this can be a way to [i]receive[/i] and evil spirit, if that person is not in evident fellowship with God.

Okay, now I know it's "kindom Now", kenneth Copeland junk.
What you are saying is from a heretical movement and from a man who is a heritic.

You can't get a demon if you let just any christian lay hands on you.

Furthermore, why would any christian want a non-christian to lay hands on them for prayer?

 2009/6/25 11:20Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic,

Quote:
What I menat is that when something appears to be sin but we, in now way, could have avoided it because of our human weakness/frailty, then it can not be sin; for sin is ALWAYS avoidable.



I'm just curious, when Jesus told Peter that Peter was going to deny knowing Christ three times - could Peter have later avoided this sin, thus making Christ a liar? If he could not, then Peter's denial of Christ was obviously unavoidable. However, you would believe that Peter was not sinning in this case since it was unavoidable?

Thanks,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/6/25 13:23Profile









 Re:

Taylor writes...

"I'm just curious, when Jesus told Peter that Peter was going to deny knowing Christ three times - could Peter have later avoided this sin, thus making Christ a liar? If he could not, then Peter's denial of Christ was obviously unavoidable. However, you would believe that Peter was not sinning in this case since it was unavoidable?"

This is not a thelogical question, therefore can never have a satisfactory answer, only one opinion versus another and there the stalemate would be. This is a question about the nature of time and how God transcends it. There is no time in Heaven, time is a human concept. When Jesus spoke to Peter He spoke of something that had already happened because God stands outside of time. It would not be a case of it being avoidable, because one cannot avoid that which has already happened. The process that led to Peter denying Jesus is the process and because the Lord has foreknowledge of this(stands outside of time) then He can comment on it. Because the Lord has foreknowledge of how things will turn out, does not make HIm a cosmic playright......Frank

 2009/6/25 13:58
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

appolus,

Thank you for you post. However, the point remains, it would have been impossible for Peter to avoid this sin, because to do so would have made Christ's statement false.

The thrust of my post being, that just because an action is unavoidable or someone's will is bound to perform it does not negate the sinfulness of the action, as proved by Peter's denial of Christ.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/6/25 14:06Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Quote:
Logic,
What I menat is that when something appears to be sin but we, in now way, could have avoided it because of our human weakness/frailty, then it can not be sin; for sin is ALWAYS avoidable.

I'm just curious, when Jesus told Peter that Peter was going to deny knowing Christ three times - could Peter have later avoided this sin, thus making Christ a liar?



Peter's sin was never unavoidable.
Jesus only told Peter what HE knew Peter would freely choose to do.
If Peter was going to freely choose not to deny Jesus, then Jesus would not say that Peter would.

God's (fore)knowledge never nesesitates the the choice.

Quote:
If he could not, then Peter's denial of Christ was obviously unavoidable. However, you would believe that Peter was not sinning in this case since it was unavoidable?

If infact, Peter HAD to sin, just because Jesus told Peter that he would, then Jesus surly wouldn't have told Peter that he would.
Jesus would never cause anyone to sin by making it unavoidable.

People think that just because God knows something, His knowledg makes it happen or come about.
Knowledge is not a cause, not even foreknowledge.
Something must cause the (fore)knowlkedge.

Just as an action causes one to have knowledge about it, so a future action causes the foreknowledge.

Our own free will choices cause God's foreknowledg, God's foreknowledg does not cause the choice.

 2009/6/25 14:08Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:

The thrust of my post being, that just because an action is unavoidable or someone's will is bound to perform it does not negate the sinfulness of the action, as proved by Peter's denial of Christ.

Let's get back to reality.
Reality shows us that the inevitable exemts one from accountability, this is a fact, no one can deny this in reality.

To make a law against the inevitable is outrightly unjust!
[b]Example:[/b] It would be unjust to make a law against growing older, dieing, needing to eat. sneezing, blinking the eye, getting tired...etc...
All these are inevitablities.

What lawmaker in theire right mind would make a law against an inevitability?
Why do you think God would?

Sin CAN NOT BE unavoidable!
Otherwise, we are condemned for something out of our own control.

In reality, no one punishes a child for things thay can't control.
No one punishes a child for not doing things which thay can't do.
Why do you think God would?

(edit addition)
You are making Jesus the cause of Peter's sin by makeing his sin inevitable by the fact of Jesus' foreknowlege of it; if His foreknowledg is the cause of Peter's sin, then Jesus is responcible for Peter's sin.

 2009/6/25 14:18Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic,

Jesus knew that Peter would sin, and He told Peter such would happen. It was a decreed event, just like the crucifixion. For Peter to have not sinned would have made Christ a false prophet, which is impossible, therefore, it was impossible for Peter to not sin in this case. I'm not making Jesus responsible for Peters sin, I'm simply saying the sin was clearly unavoidable, as evidenced by Christ saying it would happen.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/6/25 15:43Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Secondly, after Jesus told Peter what would happen, could Peter freely have chosen to do otherwise, thus proving Christ wrong?


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/6/25 16:33Profile









 Re:

Quote:
With all due respect to everyone's posts, I would encourage you, Paul, to only take heed to UncleBert's. I know that might sound strange or harsh, but there is so much Christian talk about repentance that is simply unbiblical, yet widely accepted. Thank you UncleBert for your post. Amen.

I fully reject the common assumption that 1 John 3 says we cannot "practice" sin. There's no basis for that at all in the Greek. Just because it is a presently active phrase doesn't mean John was talking about practicing sin. He was literally saying, as he so clearly says, that whoever is born of God does not sin. Present, active... he does not sin, period. Do we not read John in verse 4? What is sin? And who sins?

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4)

Whoever commits sin transgresses the law. Does that apply to a Christian, who is redeemed from the law?

"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." (Romans 7:4)

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6)

"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." (Galatians 2:19)

All Christians (those whose identities are in Christ) are dead to the law through the death of Christ. Therefore they are not subject to the law. To the law, the Christian is dead. They CANNOT break the law, and so therefore they CANNOT sin! At all! There is no way a true Christian can sin because sin is transgression of the law, and "without the law sin is dead." (Romans 7:8)

Am I making this up? No! This is the truth of Scripture!

"Sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Romans 5:13)

"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15)

John is not saying anything but what he is clearly saying. Whoever is born of God CANNOT sin. Why? John answers the question in a circle: Because he is born of God!

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." (Romans 4:6-8)

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)

"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." (Romans 8:33)

This is the most radical truth that any person could ever believe, and yet Christians continually are stuffing it under the rug, telling people they must still be condemned for their sins! Condemned for my sins? WHAT SINS? Christ took them all and I am no longer deemed a sinner! No, now I am a son of God, elect, precious, redeemed, washed, justified, forgiven - SAVED!

Each one of us would be absolutely condemned were we to seek to be right before God by our works, whether before or after conversion. The law finds us to be sinners were it not for Jesus Christ. The law demands perfection. It knows nothing of "practicing" or "habitual" righteousness. You either keep it or you don't: and nobody but Christ ever will, says John:

"And in him is no sin." (1 John 3:5)

IN HIM IS NO SIN! And THAT is why, if you are IN CHRIST, there is no sin that can be imputed to you! You CANNOT sin IN CHRIST! Impossible!

Nor is repentance a synonym for keeping the law, as so many unwittingly affirm. Repentance is, as UncleBert said, the turning to Jesus Christ for salvation and safety. It is conversion. It is when a sinner turns from trying to work his own way to righteousness and SUBMITS to the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." (Romans 10:3)

That submission to the righteousness of God is repentance, and it is THAT which Satan wars against. He has no problem with preaching morality and human righteousness. The Bible tells us he transforms his ministers into ministers of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:15). Satan loves preaching morality, because it appeals to the conscience and sweeps millions into self-righteous religion, condemning them all to hell.

Oh, little do we realize that the only righteousness that is indeed righteousness and acceptable before God is the righteousness of God Himself! What a violent war this is, and how the mighty have fallen! It is the war between the glory of God and the glory of man and all that is right and true. The righteousness of God calls a sinner a sinner indeed, and only by faith in Jesus Christ do we magnify the law of God and satisfy all requirements.

You're either dead in sin or dead to sin. And every true born again Christian is dead to sin by the body of Christ. Sin no longer has any claim upon them. They are crucified with Christ! Convicted, dead, punished, finished! They are freed from the law forever.

So the next time Satan lies to you and condemns you for your "sin", you tell him: "What sin, Satan? What sin? The sin that Jesus Christ suffered for and died for on the cross that God no longer remembers? The sin that God has removed as far as the east is from the west by the blood of the Lamb? Be silent, my accuser! Christ has defeated you once and for all and triumphed over you and your wicked devices! Who are you to condemn me? God has justified me. I am no longer yours!"

Thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!!!



Brother Eli,

1.) How does 1 John 1:9 fit in with not being under sin? Why do we need to confess our sins if we're not under sin because we're not under law?

2. The scripture states that sin is more than transgression of the law. Whatever it not of faith is sin. (Rom 14)

3. James 5:19 says "19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[b] from death and cover a multitude of sins. [/b]

James in speaking to "brethren" states that if one wanders away from the truth and they are turned back that a multitude of "sins" are covered" If a believer has not sin then how are his sins now covered by coming back to the truth from wandering away from it? Why is sin even an issue?

4.) James 4:17 says "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." How can this be if sin is only trangression of the law?

5.) Paul tells the Ephesians "Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
" Why does Paul tell believers to "sin not" if they cannot sin already?

6.) Paul is speaking to "Brothers" says that some have "eaten and drunk" judgment on themselves. If a believer cannot sin then how does one bring judgment on themselves?

27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

33 So then, [b]my brothers,[/b] when you come together to eat, wait for each other

7.) This verse in 1 Cor 8:12 says that we can sin against our brothers and even Christ Himself. "12 When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ."

There are countless other scriptures that disagree with what you have posted. Can you explain how all of these fit in with what you've believe the scripture teaches on a believer being unable to sin?

 2009/6/25 16:52





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