Los Angeles, California
| Re: |
These scriptures seem pretty clear -
[i]Romans 11:20-22 - But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
2 Peter 2:20-22 - If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.[/i]
| 2009/6/10 17:06||Profile|
| Re: The Key to this Kingdom Truth|
Thanks for your thoughtful response. Your post reminds me of the necessity of interpreting scripture within the context of the history of redemption. Many of us, including myself, simply proof-text. Without a clear understanding of the Gospel as interpreted within the context of the history of redemption, we really cannot understand the scriptures.
We must have our minds renewed, not by a scripture here and a passage there, but by the Word of God; what does the bible say...as a whole?"
With the above in mind I recommend the following to the users of this forum.
Brief Sermon Overview:
If you have already made up your mind on this important question of eternal security, you might do well to reconsider your position in light of the compelling insights this message presents on this issue so vital to us all. Dr. Stewart explores three of the unchanging divine realities upon which this question turns. He shares some fresh Biblical insights into the eternal dimension of God's redemptive plan, some innovative insights into the ancient concept of sacred blood covenants which shed amazing light on the New Covenant Jesus has inaugurated, and some reassuring insights into the unchanging and eternal character of God. Every Christian should hear this message! It will cause your heart to rejoice in God's goodness and faithfulness to you, His child. Listen and be blessed!
Thanks repentcanada(Ricky Earle)for this thread.
I agree with you Ricky that, "It's a simple thought, but it has radical implications."
Listen to the message at the above link.
And when you're through listening to that message also listen to these:
| 2009/6/10 23:40||Profile|
North Pole, Alaska
| Re: |
I've been studying 1 John in sunday school, and as we know, one of the purposes of John writing this epistle was to provide early believers of several different confirmations of salvation, or lack thereof. I came across this particular verse concerning salvation (it's hard to quote just one, as this entire book is rife with "if this- then that" distinctions:
[b]"whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him" 1 Jn 3:6[/b]
Unless you're Charles Finney, it's obvious that John is referring to constant, willful, unrepentant sin, a lifestyle as opposed to individual occurances. The next part of the verse is what I find difficult to misinterpret:
[b]"...whoever sinneth hath not seen him, nor known him."[/b]
If your lifestyle is one of constant unrepentant sin, then you have no assurance that you have [i]ever[/i] seen God or known Him. False conversion?
Also, this one is off track, but- if baptism is the model that we as individuals shold follow after, then according to the logic of "conditional security" it would be possible for one to be baptized dozens, if not hundreds of times in their lifetime, if they were to be obedient to the commands of baptism for the new believer. This logical conclusion just doesn't seem to accurately reflect the christian life. Trust me, i attend a church that is Wesleyian/Arminian, and mine is definately not the prevailing view, I also have very many close brothers and sisters in Christ there, and love them all as much as I do anyone that holds a different opinion on this issue.
Grace and peace, in love,
| 2009/6/11 1:12||Profile|
| Re: willfull sin|
What would be willful sin? Who hasn't lusted, thought unkind of a brother or sister? Who has known what do and has not done it? The list can be long here. I think there is a different for the brother or sister who struggles in areas that keep them in bondage.
[url=http://victoryoversin.com/sinenough.htm]victory over sin[/url]
[url=http://victoryoversin.com/stoptrying.htm]Stop trying to be good[/url]
| 2009/6/11 7:07||Profile|
North Pole, Alaska
| Re: |
I suppose that what I was referring to in my post was the idea of unrepentant sin, a true believer hates his sin and makes war against it, not continues in it with relish, as an unbeliever would. That is the distinction, the lifestyle of indulging in sin as opposed to falling into sin.
What I find interesting in the verse I listed is that is unequivically states that if one lives such a lifestyle, they have never known God, not "known Him and 'fallen away'"
| 2009/6/11 18:34||Profile|
| Re: falling into sin|
That is the distinction, the lifestyle of indulging in sin as opposed to falling into sin.
How do we know that we have "fallen " into sin, verses that it is "willful"; does not the two go hand in hand? What I mean is our intention in the beginning is not to give in, to walk the narrow path, but as temptation creeps in, we find that we are fighting the temptation and then at some moment, we may give in to that temptation, so that would be willful act?
| 2009/6/22 6:47||Profile|
| Re: |
Unless you're Charles Finney, it's obvious that John is referring to constant, willful, unrepentant sin, a lifestyle as opposed to individual occurances. The next part of the verse is what I find difficult to misinterpret
Why? What did actually Finney teach about believer's security or about 1Jn3:6.
| 2009/6/22 22:32||Profile|
North Pole, Alaska
| Re: |
Thanks for the question, here is a couple quotes from a Finney sermon titled [b]Abiding in Christ and Not Sinning[/b]:
[i][b]It is generally admitted that this text means so much as this--Those who abide in Christ do not sin habitually;--although there are some who would not say this, for they hold that one may be in Christ and yet live a long time in constant sinning. But in my view this text must mean more than that men do not sin habitually. If John had meant only this, why did he not say this?[/b][/i]...[i][b]Hence when we sin, we are no longer in Christ, but out of Christ. This is implied in the text, and it equally follows from the very nature of being in him.[/b][/i]
I'll see what else I can find about Finneys' views on conditional security.
| 2009/6/23 23:45||Profile|
| Re: |
Hello, I understand if one will find himself uncomfortable with the quotes you have posted. The article from which they were taken lacks elaboration and probably was not intended for the purposes of apologetics.
However, Finney did not mean 'sinless perfection', nor Christians could lose their salvation. He was clear on that in his other theological materials.
He was just calling for a higher morality than the phrase 'Christian do not habitually sin' which the meaning probably became so loose in his time, and with that saying became a much abused or perverted alibi by many professing Christians.
"...Hence when we sin, we are no longer in Christ, but out of Christ..." True indeed, no one can really say that he is abiding in Christ at the moment he is sinning, we are in the flesh while we sin.
Do many of us here know that Finney believe in 'The doctrine of the Perseverance of the saints' and that real Christians will never lose their salvation.
| 2009/6/24 5:06||Profile|